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Old 27th May 2017, 21:57   #256
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by 100BHP View Post
My dad lives and breathes diesel engines. He has been taking apart blown engines for over 30 years. All it took was one glance at the crankshaft for him to conclude its because of adulterated oil! Any engine expert worth his salt should conclude in one glance. The MSIL engineer would have known this.

Dads inference is that the "Brown Varnish" colouring all over the crankshaft is the clear evidence that the oil is adulterated. It is recycled old oil! The clinching evidence would have been "caking" in the oil pan and oil filter. Conveniently for the dealer the oil pan looks to be cleaned meticulously when you got there. Im guessing you did not see the filter either.

What happens when you run the engine with adulterated oil is that due to lack of lubrication, the piston rings stick and the compressed air from the top of the piston reaches the oil pan and blows the oil all around. The oil gets in the breather lines and sprayed everywhere. It is not a case of over filling the oil.

Finally his pointer to find out if the oil is adulterated is that the dip stick will get the "Brown varnish" colour even after running the engine for 50 hours. This is due to the pigment they add to the engine oil.

The dealer is hand in glove with the oil seller or he is making hue profits by mixing recycled oil. Stay away from him in the future.
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Old 27th May 2017, 22:03   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nohonking View Post
Dear 100BHP,

Since MSIL is going to rebuild the heart of your car joining every bit together, I would have a lot of concerns about reliability of this engine in future.
I thought that 100bhp was getting a whole new engine with gearbox! Am I missing something? It's a new engine. How would the term "rebuild the heart" qualify? The whole engine with gearbox will be plonked onto the engine mounts and secured. Only whatever is on top as outer components would be put together like air-cleaner assembly, turbo etc and the controls would be connected. But these are all external. The engine in itself is new as a whole is it not?

Last edited by pixantz : 27th May 2017 at 22:07.
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Old 27th May 2017, 23:24   #258
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by Nohonking View Post
Dear 100BHP,

Since MSIL is going to rebuild the heart of your car joining every bit together, I would have a lot of concerns about reliability of this engine in future
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixantz View Post
I thought that 100bhp was getting a whole new engine with gearbox!
As per the part number, he is getting a pre-assembled engine assembly only. The gearbox will be the old one.

Regards,
Shashi
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Old 27th May 2017, 23:35   #259
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by pixantz View Post
I thought that 100bhp was getting a whole new engine with gearbox! Am I missing something? It's a new engine. How would the term "rebuild the heart" qualify?
100bhp has shared the part number of full engine assembly.

This is what he is getting :
Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine-81.png

http://oriparts.com/7/85/1463/464976
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Old 28th May 2017, 02:02   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
100bhp has shared the part number of full engine assembly.

This is what he is getting :
Attachment 1642963
Exactly. I was responding to 'Nohonking' being concerned that the whole engine would be built bit by bit which is not the case. It's not being rebuilt but is already built and complete and is just being fit into the car. So this shouldn't make the reliability of the engine being doubtful. It's a complete new engine.
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Old 28th May 2017, 07:25   #261
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixantz View Post
It's a new engine. How would the term "rebuild the heart" qualify? The whole engine with gearbox will be plonked onto the engine mounts and secured. Only whatever is on top as outer components would be put together like air-cleaner assembly, turbo etc and the controls would be connected. But these are all external. The engine in itself is new as a whole is it not?


It's not being rebuilt but is already built and complete and is just being fit into the car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leoshashi View Post
As per the part number, he is getting a pre-assembled engine assembly only. The gearbox will be the old one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
100bhp has shared the part number of full engine assembly.
Thanks pixantz, Leoshashi & Dr.Naren for making it more clear. Apparently, I missed a read a page or two.

Still, the vital essentials (in the form of externals) such as the turbo, mating engine to the transmission(which may have an impact to the clutch assembly), the a/c assembly and the fitment of the new engine itself is all which is pertinent to the local human hands dealing the job, so the 95% rule applies for sure. Believe, a lot of post checks would need to be carried out (including but not limited to NVF levels(the outside engine noise as well), engine cranking noise & feel, engine turn off vibration and feel, check for firewall, radiator fins aren't impacted due to careless hands, check nothing remains or feels loose or sounds weird, any paint job needed inside the engine bay(due to careless workmanship), check for any gaps, scratches, marks etc. The list may be longer but this is what comes to my mind at first. Initial running in as mentioned in my post earlier, would apply to assist the new engine/transmission settle.

Lets not forget that Nexa is only the outer shell, the backend is still the same old Maruti and who knows the car better than the owner himself. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tracerspiff View Post
Dads inference is that the "Brown Varnish" colouring all over the crankshaft is the clear evidence that the oil is adulterated. It is recycled old oil! The clinching evidence would have been "caking" in the oil pan and oil filter. Conveniently for the dealer the oil pan looks to be cleaned meticulously when you got there. Im guessing you did not see the filter either.

What happens when you run the engine with adulterated oil is that due to lack of lubrication, the piston rings stick and the compressed air from the top of the piston reaches the oil pan and blows the oil all around. The oil gets in the breather lines and sprayed everywhere. It is not a case of over filling the oil.
Thank you a 1000 times tracerspiff for sharing such a valuable information with us all.

Last edited by Aditya : 28th May 2017 at 16:45. Reason: Typo
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Old 28th May 2017, 07:47   #262
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by tracerspiff View Post
My dad lives and breathes diesel engines. He has been taking apart blown engines for over 30 years. All it took was one glance at the crankshaft for him to conclude its because of adulterated oil! Any engine expert worth his salt should conclude in one glance. The MSIL engineer would have known this.

Dads inference is that the "Brown Varnish" colouring all over the crankshaft is the clear evidence that the oil is adulterated. It is recycled old oil! The clinching evidence would have been "caking" in the oil pan and oil filter. Conveniently for the dealer the oil pan looks to be cleaned meticulously when you got there. Im guessing you did not see the filter either.

What happens when you run the engine with adulterated oil is that due to lack of lubrication, the piston rings stick and the compressed air from the top of the piston reaches the oil pan and blows the oil all around. The oil gets in the breather lines and sprayed everywhere. It is not a case of over filling the oil.

Finally his pointer to find out if the oil is adulterated is that the dip stick will get the "Brown varnish" colour even after running the engine for 50 hours. This is due to the pigment they add to the engine oil.

The dealer is hand in glove with the oil seller or he is making hue profits by mixing recycled oil. Stay away from him in the future.
excellent deduction, it shows the extreme haste with which they dismantled the engine. IMHO also proves the urge of dealer to shift the blame to fuel adultration instead of taking the blame upon themselves for oil adultration.

this has been in my head for sometime now, do not depend upon service centres to put clean oil in your car esp if it a diesel, use the service centre oil change as an engine flush opportunity and real enthusiasts can change oil themselves after the service center does its stuff.
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Old 28th May 2017, 21:30   #263
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by tracerspiff View Post
.. All it took was one glance at the crankshaft for him to conclude its because of adulterated oil! Any engine expert worth his salt should conclude in one glance. The MSIL engineer would have known this.

Dads inference is that the "Brown Varnish" colouring all over the crankshaft is the clear evidence that the oil is adulterated. It is recycled old oil! The clinching evidence would have been "caking" in the oil pan and oil filter.

What happens when you run the engine with adulterated oil is that due to lack of lubrication, the piston rings stick and the compressed air from the top of the piston reaches the oil pan and blows the oil all around. The oil gets in the breather lines and sprayed everywhere. It is not a case of over filling the oil.
This makes sense - the lack of lubrication from recycled/degraded oil caused the liner damage. The liner has thin film lubrication along with high operating temperature. Combination of 2 worse things, hence possibly the weakest link. The higher summer ambient temperature in Delhi would have made matters worse for the oil.
I guess for older generation engines using recycled oil would have been ok. I know some of the farmers using it for tractors and pumps. With higher emission engines with tighter clearances, it can wreak havoc.
Please convey our thanks to your dad. Good work.
A word about NEXA- a mule in a two piece suit is still a mule.

Last edited by Czarcarsm : 28th May 2017 at 21:32.
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Old 28th May 2017, 22:06   #264
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

*UPDATE DAY 28*

Let me share the final report from MSIL. Having worked as an automobile professional in QA for many years with India's top car manufacturing brands and involved in test designs & testing of thousands of parts (no engine parts though), I have concurrently concluded few points after meeting & listening to the MSIL's Research & Quality gentlemen's all plausible facts,assurances & definitive conclusions & their report so far.


1. The oil spillage is the result of high fuel adulteration,
2. This is not a manufacturing defect.

Now, being a very patient & premium NEXA customer, MSIL representative Mr. Ashok Kumar has assured that MSIL will extend their goodwill support by bearing atleast 2/3rd cost of the repairs to me. Him being impressed me as a very professional person (told him too), I am sure that from today onwards it will be assured that relation with MSIL will be worth praising & 100% customer satisfaction only for a long time to come.
Name:  Fuel test.png
Views: 2178
Size:  110.6 KB

MSIL report points :

"We would like to inform that based on our expert inspection of the failed engine parts, compression testing on engine and vehicle fuel sample test results, our conclusion is enumerated as below,
1. The compression in the engine cylinder is below the standards due to wear in cylinder bore.
2. Due to abnormal bore wear there is an increased engine oil flow upwards to combustion chamber. Excess oil getting spilled into intake/exhaust engine circuits .
3. The pattern of bore wear confirms usage of adulterated fuel.
4. To further cross check the available symptoms, the fuel sample collected from the vehicle was tested through an accredited lab.
5. This result re-confirmed the symptom level inspection findings (1114 mg/kg of Organic Chloride leading to excessive bore wear).
In the light of above, we wish to confirm that the damages in the engine bore resulted in engine oil splashing was not due to manufacturing defect in the vehicle or malfunction of any part but due to usage of adulterated fuel in the vehicle."

Looking forward to see PO again in all its reigning glory once again !
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Old 28th May 2017, 22:19   #265
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by tracerspiff View Post
My dad lives and breathes diesel engines. He has been taking apart blown engines for over 30 years. All it took was one glance at the crankshaft for him to conclude its because of adulterated oil! Any engine expert worth his salt should conclude in one glance. The MSIL engineer would have known this.

Dads inference is that the "Brown Varnish" colouring all over the crankshaft is the clear evidence that the oil is adulterated. It is recycled old oil! The clinching evidence would have been "caking" in the oil pan and oil filter. Conveniently for the dealer the oil pan looks to be cleaned meticulously when you got there. Im guessing you did not see the filter either.

What happens when you run the engine with adulterated oil is that due to lack of lubrication, the piston rings stick and the compressed air from the top of the piston reaches the oil pan and blows the oil all around. The oil gets in the breather lines and sprayed everywhere. It is not a case of over filling the oil.

Finally his pointer to find out if the oil is adulterated is that the dip stick will get the "Brown varnish" colour even after running the engine for 50 hours. This is due to the pigment they add to the engine oil.

The dealer is hand in glove with the oil seller or he is making hue profits by mixing recycled oil. Stay away from him in the future.
Excellent explanation tracerspiff. I hope the folks at MSIL take note of this and take suitable action against the dealer. Such instances by fraudulent dealers should be made public if the manufacturer lacks the guts to penalise them. Only when people stop visiting such dealers and their investments yeild losses will they understand the trauma a hapless customer goes through because of their malpractices.
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Old 28th May 2017, 22:22   #266
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by 100BHP View Post
5. This result re-confirmed the symptom level inspection findings (1114 mg/kg of Organic Chloride leading to excessive bore wear).
Really glad to hear this is working out in your favour.

Just some thoughts in my mind - Can MSIL hazard a guess on how this excessive amount of "organic chloride" got into the diesel fuel which, as you mentioned earlier, was filled at a station that many other diesel vehicles also frequent for a fill up? Why didn't it affect other vehicles? Was this a problem that came over from the refinery? Also, what does the presence of this compound indicate and how does it affect engine lubrication?

Last edited by R2D2 : 28th May 2017 at 22:23.
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Old 28th May 2017, 22:26   #267
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SGS test report accuracy totally depends on the sample presented. Since your case has been presented well in TBHP and as MSIL gave the initial diagnosis as fuel adulteration they won't back down as say it was a lie.

What is the guarantee that MSIL submitted the exact same sample from your fuel tank untouched?

In my line of work every month I send fifty different oil samples to SGS for testing, once the sample bottle labels got interchanged and the test reports for the oils got interchanged.

@100BHP should have taken fuel sample from your tank and independently tested it from SGS.
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Old 28th May 2017, 22:46   #268
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
They weren't proactive. Without pushing by the company and pressure from internet publicity, Maruti's proactivity amounted to saving Maruti a buck or three. "Fuel adulteration, sir: here's the bill for a new engine."
True. I meant to say that their willingness to sit down with the customer and discuss the problem was appreciable. Again this is not an obligation but rather something expected of them. But you see so little of it these days.

Drive on,
Shibu
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Old 28th May 2017, 22:49   #269
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
It's been a week now that Maruti & the dealer are actively looking into the issue. Has the work started? Is it going to start tomorrow? If not, let me know and I'll refresh the issue on our homepage, facebook & news sections.

The S-Cross 1.6L is Maruti's most expensive product on sale today. Slow reaction times will NOT be tolerated.
Hopefully in Day 29 update, I will be able to share the work progress.
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Old 28th May 2017, 23:12   #270
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by 100BHP View Post
*UPDATE DAY 28*

Now, being a very patient & premium NEXA customer, MSIL representative Mr. Ashok Kumar has assured that MSIL will extend their goodwill support by bearing atleast 2/3rd cost of the repairs to me.

MSIL report points :

"We would like to inform that based on our expert inspection of the failed engine parts, compression testing on engine and vehicle fuel sample test results, our conclusion is enumerated as below,
1. The compression in the engine cylinder is below the standards due to wear in cylinder bore.
2. Due to abnormal bore wear there is an increased engine oil flow upwards to combustion chamber. Excess oil getting spilled into intake/exhaust engine circuits .
3. The pattern of bore wear confirms usage of adulterated fuel.
4. To further cross check the available symptoms, the fuel sample collected from the vehicle was tested through an accredited lab.
5. This result re-confirmed the symptom level inspection findings (1114 mg/kg of Organic Chloride leading to excessive bore wear).
In the light of above, we wish to confirm that the damages in the engine bore resulted in engine oil splashing was not due to manufacturing defect in the vehicle or malfunction of any part but due to usage of adulterated fuel in the vehicle."
For the point no. 1 mentioned regarding compression, why only one cylinder is affected ? Did the oil get spill from all cylinders or one ? What was the compression in other cylinders before the engine was opened ?

Such compression loss that can result into oil spill in engine bay should also have given more serious symptoms over some span of time IMO.

In case of fuel being so adulterated that cylinder bore increased and resulted into oil spill, shouldn't other parts like fuel pump and injectors be damaged ?


Were you updated about the fuel sample being sent for testing at an "Accredited Lab" ?
Despite your insistence, review of your vehicle was started by workshop, IIRC, they even opened up the engine.

Clearly they are covering up their error with politeness and "Goodwill".

Quote:
Originally Posted by tracerspiff View Post
My dad lives and breathes diesel engines. He has been taking apart blown engines for over 30 years. All it took was one glance at the crankshaft for him to conclude its because of adulterated oil! Any engine expert worth his salt should conclude in one glance. The MSIL engineer would have known this.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 28th May 2017 at 23:14.
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