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Old 4th June 2017, 12:02   #1
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Exclamation Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

Hello BHPians,

My Name is Shrey Raj, I am kinda new to the forum.

I have a Wagon R stingray model. This car is one gorgeous looking hatchback but the looks are the only thing that will please you. Everything else about this car is basically substandard.

The 1.0 Ltr all aluminium k10b engine is very sluggish. Throttle response is very late, only when you rev this engine hard, you will get a slight push in the name of performance. Driving the stingy in traffic is a pain.

On top of it, whenever you downshift, it gives the worst possible jolt that you could think of. Due to bad throttle response, rev matching is really difficult and gear shifts are no way smooth. Also, the car vibrates like a truck when idling.

I have considered selling this car from the very first day I bought it. But the only thing that stops me from doing this is the looks. Boy it's a gorgeous looking tall boy.

What I am thinking to do is swap the existing k10b unit with swift's k12b unit. I own a petrol Swift Dzire as well. That car is so smooth, that you just can't hear the engine when it's idling. It is the perfect 1.2 ltr engine. Rev happy, smooth and gives good feedback.

My queries are:-

1. Is the engine swap possible? Considering the fact that we are swapping a three cylinder engine with a four cylinder one.

2. The costs.

3.Will the stock components like clutch, gearbox, ecu etc be able to handle the 1.2 unit.

I think the swap will be worth it if we are able to do it as one of the BHPians has done this with his Brio, he swapped the 1.2 ltr with City's 1.5 litr unit.

I am looking forward for your response.
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Old 4th June 2017, 12:31   #2
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To be frank, if you do not like the car, sell it at the earliest to get the best resale value. Looks are secondary, the primary for would be peace of mind.
You could also look at a remap to reduce sluggishness. If it was a turbo diesel, it would have been an ideal recommendation.
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Old 4th June 2017, 12:39   #3
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Default re: Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rshrey22 View Post
Hello BHPians,
The 1.0 Ltr all aluminium k10b engine is very sluggish. Throttle response is very late, only when you rev this engine hard, you will get a slight push in the name of performance. Driving the stingy in traffic is a pain.
On top of it, whenever you downshift, it gives the worst possible jolt that you could think of. Due to bad throttle response, rev matching is really difficult and gear shifts are no way smooth. Also, the car vibrates like a truck when idling.
Hi, I have been using an Alto K10 since 2011, and i must say that the engine has been very satisfying to drive. Coming from a high revving G13B experience from an Esteem, this was the only offering within my budget which felt satisfying to drive at that point in time. I have been recently advising my friend who has got a K10 Wagon R about maintenance, and while driving his car i observed that engine has same state of tune, however the gear ratios felt a little different, but it was nowhere sluggish as you have been experiencing.

If the engine and driving experience is the only part bothering you, i suggest that you get it sorted. This is a high revving unit but is also very fruggal. I have driven the nuts and bolts out of the engine, taken it to high speeds. I downshift and rev match everyday, and once you get the idea of how much you have to blip the throttle you will stop getting the downshift jerks.

Somehow i suspect the workshop looking after your car, as similar stuff happened to our Esteem once i traveled out of my home town and my dad left it to the workshop folks.

Please PM me if you would like to discuss the issues in details.

~Aditya

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 4th June 2017 at 13:32. Reason: u > you, no SMS lingo please + no mention of speeding on public roads. Edited out the relevant bits.
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Old 4th June 2017, 12:42   #4
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Default re: Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

I really doubt if this will be possible.

To the best of my knowledge, the current Alto/Celerio/WagonR platform is basically for small 3 cylinder engines. The 1200cc 4 cylinder motor most likely will not fit.

Assuming it fits, you will have to change the ECU along with it; use the ECU of the donor 1.2 engine.

Then you will have to go through the hassle of getting it endorsed on your RC as well as insurance. Otherwise, your car is not road legal.

Regarding the said Brio 1.2/1.5 swap, note that both engines are modular. They are variants of the same Honda motor and hence are very similar to each other. Both are 4 cylinder engines and share the same block. This is why a direct swap was possible. Even then, when you go through that thread fully, you will realize just how complex it was.

As it is, Brio is a very good driver's car, great fun to drive. WagonR is practical and B O R I N G. If I were you, I will not bother with an engine swap. Just sell off the Stingray and buy something more to your taste.

Last edited by Shreyans_Jain : 4th June 2017 at 12:44.
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Old 4th June 2017, 12:50   #5
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Default re: Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

Hi,

First things first, your swap is different. Frank Mehta sir has done it on his brio, so it is possible for him. However, there is a difference between his swap and your swap. He swapped a 1.2l I-vtec 4 cylinder, with a 1.5l I-vtec 4 cylinder. Problems that could arise:

- The engine bay should be able to accomodate the new block. This is the single most important factor.

- ECU will have to be changed for sure IMO. It's only meant for 3 cylinder engines, not 4 cylinder ones

- Fuel filter will have to be changed and you will have to wire up injectors for an extra cylinder

- Fuel lines will also have to be redesigned. Again, only to accomodate an extra pot

- Don't know about the wiring for the various sensors in the engine bay. The camshaft positioning sensor and the wiring harness will have to be changed IMO

- Will have to check the clutch and gearbox for compatibility. Why don't you ask Leoshashi sir on the MGP thread about this? Confirm the part numbers for the Swift's gearbox and clutch and if they match with your stingray.

All in all, it is difficult. But doable. Try and join a chinese or a japanese forum where many people attempt engine swaps. That will help you.

All the best

Last edited by vishy76 : 4th June 2017 at 12:55.
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Old 5th June 2017, 00:34   #6
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Mod Note : Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile readers.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by adneo View Post
Hi, I have been using an Alto K10 since 2011, and i must say that the engine has been very satisfying to drive. Coming from a high revving G13B experience from an Esteem, this was the only offering within my budget which felt satisfying to drive at that point in time. I have been recently advising my friend who has got a K10 Wagon R about maintenance, and while driving his car i observed that engine has same state of tune, however the gear ratios felt a little different, but it was nowhere sluggish as you have been experiencing.
My experience with k10b has been a bitter one. I get around 9-10 km/l in city even though I upshift early.

Somehow the only way possible to get over my problem is to sell the waggy. My mechanics aren't very trusty, they quote high prices without even telling what's being done under the hood and MASS has a very poor response, they have not been able to figure out the problem even though the technician agrees that the car doesn't drive like it should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishy76 View Post
Hi,

First things first, your swap is different. Frank Mehta sir has done it on his brio, so it is possible for him. However, there is a difference between his swap and your swap. He swapped a 1.2l I-vtec 4 cylinder, with a 1.5l I-vtec 4 cylinder. Problems that could arise:
===========

All in all, it is difficult. But doable. Try and join a chinese or a japanese forum where many people attempt engine swaps. That will help you.

All the best
After going through your response, I feel that there's going to be a lot of work than just dropping the new engine under the bonnet. I think, it's better to sell the waggy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
I really doubt if this will be possible.
===============
As it is, Brio is a very good driver's car, great fun to drive. WagonR is practical and B O R I N G. If I were you, I will not bother with an engine swap. Just sell off the Stingray and buy something more to your taste.
I guess I have to agree to you and bid adeiu to the waggy.

Last edited by khan_sultan : 6th June 2017 at 10:16. Reason: Merged back-to-back posts. Please use the Multi-quote button to reply to more than one post at a time. Thanks.
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Old 5th June 2017, 10:04   #7
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Default Re: Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rshrey22 View Post
Is the engine swap possible? Considering the fact that we are swapping a three cylinder engine with a four cylinder one.
Given the money & time, anything is possible. But you have to have the appetite for it.

Since you otherwise love the car so much, selling it is a bit too extreme as the engine is decent. Let's start with basic mods first. Go to a good tuner (search in the Team-BHP Directory) and get a nice intake & exhaust. Tell the tuner that your focus is the low-end and driveability. Then, look at available remap options. The stock Civic has very poor low-end torque and is a pain to drive in the city; I greatly improved the driveability of my car with these basic mods (intake + exhaust + RaceDynamics box).

Go step by step till you are satisfied. Total cost will be 30 grand odd. It might just make you retain the car .
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Old 5th June 2017, 10:33   #8
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Default Re: Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Given the money & time, anything is possible. But you have to have the appetite for it.

============

Go step by step till you are satisfied. Total cost will be 30 grand odd. It might just make you retain the car .

Thanks GTO for your reply,

These mods are surely something that can be taken into consideration, I guess I'll either settle with these mods or let her go for something better.

Last edited by khan_sultan : 6th June 2017 at 10:14. Reason: Trimmed quoted post
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Old 5th June 2017, 10:54   #9
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Default Re: Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

Not worth it!

Even if you pull off the best possible engine upgrade, the others factors like suspension, braking, steering etc. will start to come up short. If you have the time and money, its good fun however.

I would say its best to sell the WagonR and opt for something else. Its got great resale value, so you wouldn't lose much I guess.

One option coming to my mind is the Ignis Petrol Manual. The base variants are well priced and also have ABS and Airbags. You will need to pick Zeta for rear wiper and alloys. The steering is a bit numb though. And you will retain all the practicality of the WagonR (easy ingress, space, compact size etc.) and get that brilliant K12M with the Ignis.

If practicality is not much of an issue, the Swift petrol is a good choice. Its a superior car from a driver' point of view. Just pick one of the Optional variant with safety kit if ZXi is not within budget.
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Old 5th June 2017, 11:07   #10
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Default Re: Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rshrey22 View Post
Hello BHPians,

My Name is Shrey Raj, I am kinda new to the forum.

The 1.0 Ltr all aluminium k10b engine is very sluggish. Throttle response is very late, only when you rev this engine hard, you will get a slight push in the name of performance. Driving the stingy in traffic is a pain.

1. Is the engine swap possible? Considering the fact that we are swapping a three cylinder engine with a four cylinder one.
Well, I think that engine bay has enough space for a larger motor, but this engine swap is not recommended IMO.

It would be easier to plonk in K14 in Swift than putting in K12 in wagon R. With the conversion you are having in mind, brakes, fuel lines and fuel pump, radiator, transmission, engine mounting, suspension, all will have to be taken into consideration. K10B is a 3-cylinder unit and weights quite less, 47kg Dry. K12M should obviously be more than that, plus the additional width, not sure if the engine mounts are common for both.

Additional weight upfront due to larger engine and associated components/assemblies can affect dynamics of the car IMHO.

I have 2010 Wagon R with K10B and 2015 Swift with K12M, and in my opinion, K12M in a Wagon R is too much for a humble city tall boy to handle.
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Old 5th June 2017, 12:00   #11
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Default Re: Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

GTO - the thing is, even the mechanics admit that the car is not driving as it should, meaning the performance is sub par even by WagonR standards.

@OP - Switching from mineral to fully synthetic oil and using shell petrol might make a noticeable difference in helping the engine run smoother. And a complete clean / flush might work, engine, throttle body etc. It is not a high revver like a swift but is a nice responsive car to drive within its limits. But at least you know what the car's limits are and they aren't sub par due to some fixable factor. Try that to discover the car's actual limits before remap, exhaust replacement etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Given the money & time, anything is possible. But you have to have the appetite for it.

Since you otherwise love the car so much, selling it is a bit too extreme as the engine is decent. Let's start with basic mods first. Go to a good tuner (search in the Team-BHP Directory) and get a nice intake & exhaust. Tell the tuner that your focus is the low-end and driveability. Then, look at available remap options. The stock Civic has very poor low-end torque and is a pain to drive in the city; I greatly improved the driveability of my car with these basic mods (intake + exhaust + RaceDynamics box).

Go step by step till you are satisfied. Total cost will be 30 grand odd. It might just make you retain the car .
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Old 5th June 2017, 12:38   #12
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Default Re: Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

First thing I'd say is calm down. Chill out buddy you own a WagonR. If the service center you are giving it to can't diagnose the problem with it properly then go somewhere else. Any mechanic worth his salt ought to be able to properly diagnose a WagonR inside-out.

As someone who has owned a WagonR for 13 years now and covered 1.7 lakh fun filled kms in it, I understand the sentimental value you may have that is restricting you from selling it. So many people I meet ask me why I still keep this car, only my friends know and appreciate why. What more practical hatch can one buy? The car comes with lot of space and headroom for its size and the narrow shell makes it so easy to drive in traffic. I leave Polo GTs, Brios, Swifts etc in the dust within city limits. If one has owned a car with such a tiny footprint before like a zen, they'd know what I mean.

I have always been happy with the 4cyl F10D heart in my car, and I can understand your frustration with the weedy K series unit. That said, the engine in your car does have quite a lot of potential. It is just that over the years as emission and fuel economy norms get more stringent, naturally aspirated engines have become more and more lacklustre in stock tune.

Swapping the engine would not only be a painfully lengthy process but you will miss out on your insurance and technically your car will not be road legal anymore.

As GTO said, simply go find the best performance garage in your area (so many with their own drag teams etc.) use the search tool in t-bhp to verify any particular garage's competency and quality of work, have them inspect your car, get a high-flow filter and perhaps alter the intake as per their recommendations, get a full custom 3x2x1 (haven't owned a 3cyl car so not sure if it is possible but in theory it should give you better bottom-end than a 3x1 setup) free flow exhaust with headers, have the car remapped and tell them specifically to improve the throttle response (company adds delay to the throttle just for best ARAI figures purposes), get the throttle body looked at and properly flushed out if there are any carbon deposits, check your gearbox mounting ("bedding" in local garage fellow speak ), since you said that it is very jerky (you could simply check this by watching how jerky the on/off throttle transitions are) and then check each of the 3 drive-train mounts in your car, get all suspension linkages looked at, have all bolts in the chassis re-torqued properly and you are good to go I can guarantee you won't regret this.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 5th June 2017 at 13:03.
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Old 5th June 2017, 15:07   #13
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Default Re: Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rshrey22 View Post

I am looking forward for your response.
Hi,

My 3rd engine swap is under process and each time, when I look back at the time and effort, I always think it was a mistake. In my experience, if the car is a daily use one, or even one which you take for a long trips, an engine swap will make it unreliable, when compared to the factory fit one. If you want it to be reliable, you'll have to spend big bucks which will then undermine the overall value of the car.
Quote:
I think the swap will be worth it if we are able to do it as one of the BHPians has done this with his Brio, he swapped the 1.2 ltr with City's 1.5 litr unit.
I understand that you got the idea after reading this thread? Well, these two engines had the same block, same engine foundation, same bell housing and more or less the same construction. Still I believe he went through a lot of pain to get it working well.

My take is: If you want to do the swap as a project, then go ahead, but, if you want to increase the power of a daily use car, then DONT even think about it.
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Old 5th June 2017, 23:35   #14
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Default Re: Engine Swap in a WagonR Stingray?

Don't do it unless you want a project car! The time and money it demands is better spent to buy another car instead. Look for a lateral upgrade to something like a Swift or a Ritz and believe me it will be hassle free and less expensive.

If needing to stick to the car, try simpler mods like a Free flow exahust, Cold air intake. Chip tuning may not be that helpful since it is a NA engine afterall.

But this will not fix any problem that the car already has. Find another maruti dealer or a nice FNG to get it looked at. Only after correcting that, look towards Modding, not at all before that as it could cause further damage.
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Old 6th June 2017, 07:05   #15
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Improve driveability by changing gear and final ratios. Interesting thought as most of the Suzuki gear box components across the range follow same dimensions. People bringing Suzuki car's to autocross have done such swaps.
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