Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th June 2017, 17:26   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 14
Thanked: Once
Default Engine oil levels coming down, but there's no leak

Dear Team, I have no automobile background, but I have a 2005 model Alto Lxi that was in excellent condition until recently I started noticing the engine oil level was coming down frequently although there was no leak under the car.
Every time it was topped up, it would stay good for a few months and then it's almost dry. The MASS personal is quite familiar with me and he insists there's no leak under, he suspects the oil must be burning out during running (I am not sure if such a thing happens), if that, what's the way forward, he has already hinted at an Engine work.
A few other details to add-
The car has already done 1.67Lakh. It has only been serviced in a MASS all these years.
Until 1.2Lakh or so, the engine was extremely smooth, but in the last 30K or so, I've had a rough noise emanating from the engine when I cross 80kmph, it is no longer responsive like it used to be.
Appreciate any inputs please.

Thanks, Best
blueaquan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 18:07   #2
BHPian
 
norhog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: mumbai/ Kolkata
Posts: 148
Thanked: 107 Times
Default Engine oil levels coming down without a leak

It is time for that engine overhaul. 1.67lakhs is a lot of KM. Some piston ring or oil scraper ring may have given away.
Just to be confirmed please ask your MASS to check the compression of each cylinder. If lower than specified in the service manual, will again mean the above defect and overhaul.
A quick check would be to check the condition of spark plugs at FNG and do post pictures of it from all three units.

Last edited by norhog : 19th June 2017 at 18:11.
norhog is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 18:27   #3
Senior - BHPian
 
VW2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: electricity
Posts: 2,538
Thanked: 1,986 Times
Default re: Engine oil levels coming down, but there's no leak

Quote:
Until 1.2Lakh or so, the engine was extremely smooth, but in the last 30K or so, I've had a rough noise emanating from the engine when I cross 80kmph, it is no longer responsive like it used to be.
Appreciate any inputs please.
Valve, rings, timing chain and so many things than can lead to oil being consumed more. You are actually burning oil like norhog said. Time for a overhaul.
VW2010 is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 20:33   #4
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 14
Thanked: Once
Default re: Engine oil levels coming down, but there's no leak

Thank you Norhog and VW2010. As I mentioned earlier, I have zero or little automobile knowledge, when you meant engine overhaul, does that mean changing the entire engine? Or I read a few post where some were talking about changing half the engine. I really don't want to sell off the Car even if it means I buy a new one, I would like to keep this as an antique piece. Therefore I am curious to know how much would it cost me to get this overhaul done?

Thanks, best
blueaquan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 20:58   #5
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Chennai
Posts: 150
Thanked: 72 Times
Default

This is certainly excessive oil consumption in the combustion chamber. Please check if you see symptoms of white smoke coming out of exhaust at idle / rising throttle. Worn out oil Ring / issues with cylinder wall would cause this. This is not very abnormal of high mileage engines. I'm certain a overhaul of a Suzuki engine at a MASS must cost you much less than any other manufacturer !

Last edited by GTO : 20th June 2017 at 10:50. Reason: Pl = please :)
vvijay is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 21:07   #6
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,710
Thanked: 7,386 Times
Default re: Engine oil levels coming down, but there's no leak

Check the exhaust end, if it is wet with oil it is a sign of engine overhaul. Ensure the pipes are cold if you are planning to touch it using hands

At cold start if you see white smoke, or while free revving then again it is a sign of failing engine. Inspecting the spark plugs also would help identify oil consumption.
Jaggu is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 21:12   #7
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 14
Thanked: Once
Default re: Engine oil levels coming down, but there's no leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by vvijay View Post
Pl check if you see symptoms of white smoke coming out of exhaust at idle / rising throttle.
This may be surprising, but I don't see any white smoke from the exhaust.
blueaquan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 21:17   #8
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,045
Thanked: 6,131 Times
Default

Before doing anything, how much oil per 1000km are you adding/topping up? For many engines up to 1liter per 1000 km can be considered normal.
Jeroen
Jeroen is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 21:29   #9
BHPian
 
drsingh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ludhiana
Posts: 673
Thanked: 457 Times
Default

Maruti ASS has recently started using full synthetic oil for even old engines that were using mineral oil for service.switching back to mineral oil may solve the issue. Or as Jeroen mentioned above,top up your engine oil and continue,until you have significant loss of power that warrants opening up the engine.
drsingh is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 21:37   #10
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 14
Thanked: Once
Default re: Engine oil levels coming down, but there's no leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
how much oil per 1000km are you adding/topping up? For many engines up to 1liter per 1000 km can be considered normal.
Jeroen
Well, I think it is close to this figure, I just topped up a one liter few days ago, when I alarmingly discovered the oil mark was not to be seen on the dipstick. It has never stopped on the road although I frequently travel about 100km at a stretch and the engine has never stopped due to overheat even when the oil levels were very low.
I am but curious to check that spark plug if someone could elaborate how to do that. White smoke from the rear is not there during idling, but I will check this tomorrow morning during the cold start and let you know if that is happening.
blueaquan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 21:50   #11
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,710
Thanked: 7,386 Times
Default re: Engine oil levels coming down, but there's no leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
or many engines up to 1liter per 1000 km can be considered normal.
Not for a Suzuki design engine, in good health.

Before opening spark plugs, just check the exhaust tip. It is a very easy check to do.
Jaggu is online now   (5) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 22:41   #12
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,045
Thanked: 6,131 Times
Default re: Engine oil levels coming down, but there's no leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Not for a Suzuki design engine, in good health.

Before opening spark plugs, just check the exhaust tip. It is a very easy check to do.
Not sure about this particular Suzuki Alto, but on other versions the owner manual states:

From chapter 3.2 both Alto variant:

Quote:
Engine Oil Consumption
It is normal for the engine to consume some engine oil during normal vehicle operation.
The amount of engine oil consumed depends on the viscosity of the oil, the quality of the oil and the conditions the vehicle is driven under.
More oil is consumed during high-speed driving and when there is frequent acceler- ation and deceleration. Under high loads, your engine also will consume more oil.
A new engine also consumes more oil, since its pistons, piston rings and cylinder walls have not yet become conditioned. New engines reach the normal level of oil consumption only after approximately 5000 km (3000 miles) driving.

Oil consumption:
Max. 1.0 L per 1000 km


When judging the amount of oil consump- tion, note that the oil may become diluted and make it difficult to accurately judge the true oil level.
As an example, if a vehicle is used for repeated short trips, and consumes a nor- mal amount of oil, the dipstick may not show any drop in the oil level at all, even after 1000 km or more of driving. This is because the oil is gradually becoming diluted with fuel or moisture, making it appear that the oil level has not changed.
See:

http://www.marutisuzuki.com/owners-manual.aspx

There is this persistent misconception that (car) engines should not use any oil, or very little (whatever that might be). Or that an engine isn’t in good health if it uses oil. That is simply not the case.

In most cases as long as you don’t notice any performance degradation there is usually not much to worry about.

Also, note the remarks in the Suzuki manual that stipulates that not using oil, by looking at the dipstick, is difficult as the oil tends to get diluted over time.

So for all those forum members with engines that are not using oil, something to think about. It’s just a case where good oil gets substituted by moisture, fuel and dirt! And your dipstick reading stays about level!

From this thread: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post4215507 (Excessive engine oil consumption in the VAG TSI engines)

I quote from my advise there:

Quote:
There are roughly speaking three main reasons for oil consumption. The most obvious is the engine just leaking out. This tends to be very visible as you will see oil and dirt underneath the car/engine. Second is problems with the the piston rings. The bottom ring is supposed to scrape the oil down into the sump. That could be a problem, or even worse, several piston rings have issues. Which means the oil is able to get on top of the piston where it will get burned. You might see a loss of engine power due to poor compression. The only way to verify is to have a proper compression test done on each cylinder. The remedy is to replace the piston rings which is always a very big job.

The third reason could be related to the seals around the (exhaust) valve stems. If they become poorly oils gets drawn into the cylinder where it gets burned. Tell tales are black smoke from the exhaust if you come of the throttle.

The remedy is to change the seals. Some cars/engines are very prone to this problem. (E.g. Alfa Romeo). Depends on the type of engine, but on most you can replace the seals insitu.

Using an oil with incorrect specifications could be a possible fourth reason.

So, when an engine has a high oil consumption this is what to do:
- ensure the oil is compliant with your car manufacturer specification
- check for visible leaks
- check color of exhaust gas on and of the throttle
- compression test

There could be other reasons but the above covers most cases I think.
In this particular case, as suggested check color of exhaust gas when accelerating and also when coming of the throttle (preferably at high RPM)

If you want to be sure, you need to do a compression, or better yet, a so called blow by test. The compression test takes 5 minutes for a mechanic with a compression meter. The blow by test usually takes a bit longer and requires some more kit.

Good luck.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 19th June 2017 at 22:43.
Jeroen is online now   (6) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 22:43   #13
Distinguished - BHPian
 
BlackPearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Calcutta
Posts: 2,283
Thanked: 4,139 Times
Default re: Engine oil levels coming down, but there's no leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Before doing anything, how much oil per 1000km are you adding/topping up? For many engines up to 1liter per 1000 km can be considered normal.
Jeroen
For 3 or 4 cylinder engines, 1 litre per 1000 kilometers is a lot. I think 1 litre per 10000 kms would be a closer figure if the engine is not in the best of health.
BlackPearl is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 22:45   #14
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,710
Thanked: 7,386 Times
Default re: Engine oil levels coming down, but there's no leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Not sure about this particular Suzuki Alto, but on other versions the owner manual states:
I can't comment on disclaimers from manual but in real life I have never seen such consumption with Jap designs, in a VAG car I can understand.

Quote:
In this particular case, as suggested check color of exhaust gas when accelerating and also when coming of the throttle (preferably at high RPM)

If you want to be sure, you need to do a compression, or better yet, a so called blow by test.
Completely agree, a good mech should be able to help diagnose if there is serious issue with the engine.
Jaggu is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2017, 22:46   #15
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,045
Thanked: 6,131 Times
Default re: Engine oil levels coming down, but there's no leak

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
For 3 or 4 cylinder engines, 1 litre per 1000 kilometers is a lot. I think 1 litre per 10000 kms would be a closer figure if the engine is not in the best of health.
Sorry, that is simply incorrect. See my post above or check the other post where I’m referring to. The 1 liter per 1000kms was already discussed there. Various members found reference to this rules of thumb which has been around for a few decade.

If all fails, do check the owner’s manual! As we have already seen, many manuals will mention this exact 1l/1000km.

Again, engine oil usage is not a direct indicator of engine health. That is a big misconception!

Jeroen
Jeroen is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine oil leak? fine69 Technical Stuff 54 24th August 2017 09:02
Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service parimal_g Technical Stuff 165 28th March 2017 22:45
Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34% S2!!! The Indian Car Scene 66 2nd June 2016 16:21
Maruti Ertiga VDi - Engine oil leak. EDIT : Issue resolved on Page 3 S5157 Technical Stuff 61 6th December 2015 17:55
Pulsar 220 engine oil leak ravi_23 Motorbikes 6 15th October 2013 13:22


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 13:20.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks