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Old 21st June 2017, 09:52   #16
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

Anurag.

Amazing work to pull off a complicated process by your own and well documented as usual.

You have successfully managed to balance the injectors without taking it out.

The noise issue should be resolved now I am sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prithm View Post
I did injector cleaner at 10000 klick service at Gem. Mine is petrol DZire, they had the injector cleaner apparatus (milk can with multiple pipes at the bottom) and took me 10 minutes and Rs.700.
Why injector cleaning is required at 10k kms ?

Last edited by kpzen : 21st June 2017 at 09:54.
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Old 21st June 2017, 09:55   #17
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Originally Posted by kpzen View Post
You have successfully managed to balance the injectors without taking it out.

The noise should be resolved I am sure.
Thank you Sir and I have trouble'd you a lot too for Bosch centres to get the cleaning done actually.

Regarding the sound, it is down by almost 40%. very happy actually with the results. Plan to take it on ORR today to see how it feels on highways.
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Old 21st June 2017, 10:01   #18
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

Two months ago, Engine in my old figo diesel started to sound like a tractor when idling. Used liqui Molly injector cleaner additive which was supposed to be added to the fuel tank. They recommend 40 liters of diesel I guess. But I added the additive in about 25liters of diesel and the sound surely came down. The package costed Rs 550/- I guess and claimed that the effect will last for 2000 Kms.
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Old 21st June 2017, 11:38   #19
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

A well documented thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
With the car on the other side of 1,00,000 kms, issues have started cropping up slowly. The lower arm bushes need a change, the engine sound and feel is going downwards. There is a sort of knocking/'missing-like' sound when on medium load.
Is this issue about the engine note being loud or is it about the engine clatter? At what exact RPM are you having this issue?

In my Linea, I have observed a change in engine note around 2.5K RPM, this started after the timing chain replacement. So, wondering if its the same with you as you changed the timing chain recently.

Do you have any before/after audio recording of the sound?
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Old 21st June 2017, 11:42   #20
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

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Originally Posted by kpzen View Post
Why injector cleaning is required at 10k kms ?
Filled the tank in bad petrol bunk on highway and performance was not like how a Petrol vehicle would. It was sluggish and absolutely bad. So had to do it at 10K.
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Old 21st June 2017, 11:44   #21
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

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Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post
Is this issue about the engine note being loud or is it about the engine clatter? At what exact RPM are you having this issue?
The noise in my car is clearly heard at 1600-1800 RPM.

Post that thanks to damn NVH standards of my Swift, it gets mixed into the engine noise.

I'll search for the recording in my other phone. Don't have them currently and moreover the recording aren't clear as background noise recorded is higher. I have a video that I shot when I was doing a small trial by removing the to intercooler​ hose.
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Old 21st June 2017, 11:48   #22
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

Excellent writeup Anurag.

I haven't yet decided if I should try this out because my Swift has been on a healthy diet of STP diesel additive every 5000km. Switched to Liqui Moly since the last 5000. I am surprised with the results and the longevity of Liqui Moly induced smoothness in the engine. They recommend a can every 2000km however I add one every 5000km. Has been very effective once I do a quick Italian tuneup on the highway.
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Old 21st June 2017, 12:17   #23
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

I wanted to try this product on my Punto 90 and hit a roadblock when I knew that both pumps need to be on to make this possible.

Liqui Moly recommends we run it with 100% Diesel Purge and not mixed with diesel for best results, but I had to compromise. So I ran the car till it was almost empty, and then emptied the can in the fuel tank and idled the car at all rpm ranges for 15-20 minutes.

I could feel the difference immediately and the issue which I had earlier for almost a lakh kms was gone. (improper idling, rpm fluctuations between 1.5k to 2k rpms especially when engine is cold)

I would definitely recommend this product and would use it again once in a while.
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Old 21st June 2017, 12:25   #24
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

Thanks for your response Sir

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
I wanted to try this product on my Punto 90 and hit a roadblock when I knew that both pumps need to be on to make this possible.
Thats why we made a temporary connection for this fuel pump by crimping connectors and connecting it to the battery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Liqui Moly recommends we run it with 100% Diesel Purge and not mixed with diesel for best results, but I had to compromise.
We thought of this too before starting the purging but 500ml quantity won't be enough for the pump to run, hence mixed in 1-2 litres diesel. It was sucking air when 500ml was poured in directly into the pump unit.
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Old 21st June 2017, 15:33   #25
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

Really a great technical stuff and amazing work done by "a4anurag". Although there are arguments for and against, the work done is commendable and is appreciated. It really requires sufficient knowledge about the diesel injectors and their functioning to execute the work. I have learnt several aspects from his work. Thanks!

Last edited by GTO : 22nd June 2017 at 10:09. Reason: Typo
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Old 22nd June 2017, 09:00   #26
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Parallely, during this, was in conversation with Parag Sachania and Leoshashi for suggestions and methods to solve the issue. Also because Parag too was facing the same in his Ertiga, would be of help to us both at the same time. Sincere​ thanks to both of them for being in constant touch.
The issue (If it indeed was) that I was facing in the Ertiga was similar if not same - With no difference in Top end performance or FE, it was more experienced in B2B traffic. There was this noticeable hesitation in picking up speeds while Turbo was kicking in normally. Most importantly, that knocking clatter like the one you shared was never experienced in my car.

Took a while to realise that this was fuel related and one of the first culprit was the Diesel Filter that wasn't replaced after more than 20,000 kms. Post replacement, everything was back to normal but that joy was short-lived - Documented in detail in my ownership thread.

To isolate various components, we checked the Fuel Pump, Fuel Tank (for any Dirt) and finally we zeroed in on the Injectors and since removing and cleaning the Injectors was the last option, I took had taken the Liqui Moly Diesel Purge route with more or less no difference felt after using almost as prescribed.

Reason:There was probably no issue with the Injectors at all. The ASC was very particular when they drove and said if the injectors are clogged, there is this distinct knocking like noise when you rev up or even in idle. None of this was present in my case.

When I showed the video you shared with that noisy knocking, It became very evident that the issue was indeed with the injectors and nothing else. Hence, I am very interested to see a Before-After comparison here. Please share if you have that. At least that can be a wonderful success story to share here.

Comparing DTC Values of another car:

Beyond that, As we discussed, I also compared the DTC Values, both at Idle and at Higher RPMS and noticed that there was difference mainly in the "Total Fuel Injected" parameter. Below image should give you an idea that this was lower in my case. However, It was important to note the fact that the other differentiator here was the Engine Temperature of both the Ertigas. While mine had attained Operating Temperature, the other Ertiga had not.

(click on Image for better readability)

Injector Cleaning in my Swift-20170404_182257.jpg

On comparing these values instantly, it was a Eureka moment but I only blame this on the momentary excitement and nothing else. I shared this with Leoshashi and Upon showing this to Audioholic he was quick to notice that the Engine Temperature of both the cars were different .

It meant one thing - That fuel injected quantity will vary between 2 cars based on Engine Temperature as well, whether its a Lean mixture (after engine warms up) or a Rich Mixture (Cold Starts). So this was no way to say that my injectors were clogged.

Other parameters like Idle Speed, Fuel Rail Pressure:

Notice in the above picture that for both the Ertigas that the Desired Idle and Desired Rail Pressure have different values. However, the Actual Values are same as what was Desired for both. It just concludes that things were normal when it came to what was Desired by the Map at that particular combination of Temperature and Engine speed and what the car was showing.

Throttle Position:

All this was recorded with RPM around 2700 and you can notice the amount of throttle applied in both the cars - While ACC Position was 5.88% in my Ertiga, it was 6.67% In another Ertiga which still had not warmed up. It means, with a lesser throttle input, my car was still at the same RPM as the other.

With all this, it was becoming clear that the issue was indeed not entirely the Injectors as there was Zero evidence even with the noise like you had shared. The Engine note was crisp, Zero vibrations at Idle speed too.

EGR, Intake Manifold and Intercooler Cleaning solved it?

In my recent service, I got the EGR cleaned along with the Intake Manifold and Intercooler. Post that there was marginal improvement and I asked the ASC to delay replacing the fuel filter till this tank lasted. After this, I drove for more than 1000 kms and then replaced the fuel filter again which I had kept pending. I have to admit that the difference now is easily noticeable. Whether it was the EGR or the Intake Manifold - Not sure even now but ultimately things have settled down.

As I said earlier, It would be wonderful to have a comparision video now Anurag since you mention in one of the response that the noise is reduced by 40%.

What I would still do is to compare the 2 Ertigas again when both cars have same/similar engine Temperature.

Few Pictures taken when I had used the Diesel Purge 2 months back, more importantly to show how to isolate the Low Pressure Fuel Pump by pulling out the Relay while you carry out this testing which you mentioned here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Step - 8: Pull out the fuse for the fuel pump from the fuse box located in the engine bay so the pump in the fuel tank doesn't run throwing diesel onto the engine from the pipes that were disconnected in Step - 4.
Which relay to Pull:

Injector Cleaning in my Swift-20170512_110541.jpg

Clearly marked on the Relay Box located inside the Engine Bay:

Injector Cleaning in my Swift-20170512_110605.jpg

The relay removed:

Injector Cleaning in my Swift-20170512_110639.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Step - 5: Change the fuel filter (IF older than 10,000 kms) before beginning the test.
Any particular reason to change the filter before this test is performed? Since you are anyway isolating the Primary fuel supply line including the Fuel Filter by using a separate Fuel pump, how will changing the fuel filter make a difference?

Or did you mean to say that one must replace the Fuel Filter with a fresh one soon after this test is performed so expect better results? I assume you meant this only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
I'll search for the recording in my other phone. Don't have them currently and moreover the recording aren't clear as background noise recorded is higher. I have a video that I shot when I was doing a small trial by removing the to intercooler​ hose.
Are you referring that the Video you shared with me was with Intercooler hose removed? Even then, the knocking/clatter was clearly noticeable in that one and not sure if that kind of a sound can be due to intercooler hose removed. A clear sign of clogged injectors that was.

This is a video of the way the Engine responded based on throttle inputs which I had recorded at least 2 months before. This was even before the Fuel filter was replaced that had solved the problem and I had updated here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Issue fixed - It was the Diesel Filter
Notice that there is no knocking or unusual clatter heard like the one you had shared?



Hence I am very keen to know how your car sounds now after this exercise which will help me too.

Last edited by paragsachania : 22nd June 2017 at 09:27.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 10:57   #27
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

Quote:
Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
As I said earlier, It would be wonderful to have a comparision video now Anurag since you mention in one of the response that the noise is reduced by 40%.
It'll be uploaded by the end of the day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Any particular reason to change the filter before this test is performed? Since you are anyway isolating the Primary fuel supply line including the Fuel Filter by using a separate Fuel pump, how will changing the fuel filter make a difference?
As mentioned in the original post, I suggested that changing the fuel filter to new BEFORE the test to strike off any oddities in the system.

Plus it was mentioned that a change in filter is needed ONLY if the car has clocked more than 10,000 kms post the last filter change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Or did you mean to say that one must replace the Fuel Filter with a fresh one soon after this test is performed so expect better results? I assume you meant this only.
No. Explained my point of view above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Are you referring that the Video you shared with me was with Intercooler hose removed?
Yes. Same video.

If you remember the chat when we had, I mentioned that it is the AMPLIFIED VERSION of the knocking like sound that I hear always and the video DOES NOT depict what is heard in daily drive.

Also the throttle response is low since the intake manifold isn't getting the air properly as it should since the hose was disconnected, it was jerking and resisting to accelerator input. In reality response is good.

Will be shortly doing the DIY Cleaning on intake manifold and EGR

Quote:
Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post
Do you have any before/after audio recording of the sound?
Here's the video of the sound recording (I have explained above the conditions while recording).

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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:06   #28
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
If you remember the chat when we had, I mentioned that it is the AMPLIFIED VERSION of the knocking like sound that I hear always and the video DOES NOT depict what is heard in daily drive.
Quote:
Here's the video of the sound recording (I have explained above the conditions while recording).
Thanks Anurag. I went back and checked both Videos - The one that is "amplified" and the other one which is not.

However, that knocking like clatter is heard (if not loudly) which easily hints at the Injectors. In a way, the clatter as you rev up around ~80 KMPH mark isn't normal.

Also - Whether I am not sure whether disconnecting the Air Intake Mainfold would have really resisted Airflow to that extent that the car would start knocking. In this video that you shared here, more than improper combustion, it gives clear indication that the injection cycle is not happening properly and hence so much of knocking noise.

As EGR and Intake Manifold cleaning has made a difference and as we discussed, you can get that done too for better results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
I have a video that I shot when I was doing a small trial by removing the to intercooler​ hose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Also the throttle response is low since the intake manifold isn't getting the air properly as it should since the hose was disconnected, it was jerking and resisting to accelerator input. In reality response is good.
So you this video was with both Intercooler Hose as well as Air Intake Manifold removed? Did this actually help find the cause or make any difference?

May be I need to try this and see if there is such an odd behavior with the noise levels when these hoses remain disconnected.

Last edited by paragsachania : 22nd June 2017 at 11:11.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:19   #29
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

Quote:
Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
So you this video was with both Intercooler Hose as well as Air Intake Manifold removed? Did this actually help find the cause or make any difference?.
No buddy.

Intake manifold how to remove and ride around buddy. I said intercooler hose leading to the intake manifold was disconnected.

Injector Cleaning in my Swift-screenshot_20170622111816.png

Hose No. 11 disconnected​ at position on top near clamp No. 13
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:25   #30
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Default Re: Injector Cleaning in my Swift

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Intake manifold how to remove and ride around buddy. I said intercooler hose leading to the intake manifold was disconnected.
Clear much of my confusion now, thanks again Anurag .

I would certainly want to try this and check if the knocking heard is as cyclic and rhythmic as yours in that case even though my issue seems to have got resolved but like all the times, I would report it to be resolved only after few weeks of driving.

That said, please get the EGR and Intake Manofold cleaned and the results would get better.

Will wait for the Before-After videos from you now : Something synonymous with most of your DIYs
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