Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th June 2007, 12:25   #16
BHPian
 
gopz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 452
Thanked: Once
Default

Installing a brake booster for m800, is it really useful and effective? Is it worth the upgrade? I guess it costs around 5000 but is it effective?
gopz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2007, 12:35   #17
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 254
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahul_intlad View Post
what are these Power Brakes
Power brakes are nothing, but a common term for "power assisted brakes",
usually a booster is employed to reduce pedal effort by driver, which serves the purpose.

It is a round thing having a diaphgram inside, which work on pressure difference principle.It may be either, vaccum boosted or pressure boosted depending upon the design.

This is the story of power brakes, i guess M800 is the only car in india without a booster.
arunforu1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2007, 13:18   #18
Senior - BHPian
 
mail4ajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,834
Thanked: 222 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gopz View Post
Installing a brake booster for m800, is it really useful and effective? Is it worth the upgrade? I guess it costs around 5000 but is it effective?
Its definately worth especially if you are driving on higways. But do check on the prices. Please install this in a reputed place like a authorised service center if not at the dealer. You cannot take chances on your brakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunforu1 View Post
This is the story of power brakes, i guess M800 is the only car in india without a booster.
Maruti has made enough and more money on this car. Hate to hear that they still dont have the Booster brakes yet.
mail4ajo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2007, 14:25   #19
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 254
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gopz View Post
Installing a brake booster for m800, is it really useful and effective? Is it worth the upgrade? I guess it costs around 5000 but is it effective?
NO, installing only booster will not help, as brake fluid lines & components like servos are not designed for higher pressure rates exerted by the boosted system.

you have to replace complete kit including master cylinder & have to make arrangments to fit booster+master cyl. assy. in cramped hood space of M800, going to be a costly affair & doesnt makes sense.

I think using hight performance brake pads/liners makes more sense here in case of M800.

EDIT: not to mention a vaccum pump/compressor driven by engine to feed the booster diaphgram.

Last edited by arunforu1 : 8th June 2007 at 14:26.
arunforu1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2007, 15:04   #20
BHPian
 
Gerardfdz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 210
Thanked: 60 Times
Default

I think the funda given is not all correct!
Quote:
Originally Posted by arunforu1 View Post
NO, installing only booster will not help, as brake fluid lines & components like servos are not designed for higher pressure rates exerted by the boosted system..
The same hyd lines from the present master to the individual wheels can be connected to it. As "a booster is employed to reduce pedal effort by driver, "with the help of a vaccum! And not some Pump that will increase pressure in the lines!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunforu1 View Post
you have to replace complete kit including master cylinder & have to make arrangments to fit booster+master cyl. assy. in cramped hood space of M800, going to be a costly affair & doesnt makes sense..
That is the only part that needs to be replaced !

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunforu1 View Post
EDIT: not to mention a vaccum pump/compressor driven by engine to feed the booster diaphgram..
Nothing like that required! Just a hose from the Intake manifold to the booster diaphram!

PS My gypsy was modded with a booster brake -By Maruti!
Gerardfdz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2007, 17:15   #21
BHPian
 
gopz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Blighty
Posts: 452
Thanked: Once
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerardfdz View Post
I think the funda given is not all correct!The same hyd lines from the present master to the individual wheels can be connected to it. As "a booster is employed to reduce pedal effort by driver, "with the help of a vaccum! And not some Pump that will increase pressure in the lines!


That is the only part that needs to be replaced !

Nothing like that required! Just a hose from the Intake manifold to the booster diaphram!

PS My gypsy was modded with a booster brake -By Maruti!


Thanks for all the replies guys, but Oh! I am confused now...somebody please help meee...

I will go in for it if it makes (in the least) 25% improvement in the braking efficiency,.
gopz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2007, 17:17   #22
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 254
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerardfdz View Post
I think the funda given is not all correct!The same hyd lines from the present master to the individual wheels can be connected to it. As "a booster is employed to reduce pedal effort by driver, "with the help of a vaccum! And not some Pump that will increase pressure in the lines!


That is the only part that needs to be replaced !

Nothing like that required! Just a hose from the Intake manifold to the booster diaphram!

PS My gypsy was modded with a booster brake -By Maruti!
Very correct the booster reduces pedal effort, but exerts much more pressure than human foot to push brake fluid in lines & hoses.So increasing pressure in lines. Under this increament in brake fluid pressure the flexible hoses near wheels may give up, Remember brakes are critical component.

I dont know about vaccum from intake manifold being sufficent to boost(i may be wrong), but have practically seen a vehicle with a separate vaccum pump to store boosting diffrential pressure in vaccum tanks.

Master cylinder & servo combo simply multiplies the foot effort by hydraulic means(simple physics). now effort augmentation is achieved using a booster, means booster is pushing same fluid from master cylinder under much more pressure(foot effort+booster effort), so pressure inside brake pipes increases & hence chance of failure of hoses which were designed to handle lesser pressure(i.e. from foot effort augmented by master+servo combo).

I am not sure about smaller vehicles, but bigger vehicles do have a dedicated vaccum pump(or compressor) to feed booster & not brake fluid directly.

i hope this clears everything, there is a reservoir to hold vaccum/pressure which supplies the vaccum or compressed air to booster when pedal is actuated by driver.

You may be correct that smaller vehicles might use intake vaccum for boosting(as i am not aware of this thing), but what mechanism is there to tackle:

1. variation in intake vaccum due to variation in enigne rpm under different driving conditions?
2. in case of engine shut off, all boosting must go at once, where as it doesnt happens, you loose boosting only after 2-3 pedal depressions ?
arunforu1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2007, 23:41   #23
BHPian
 
Gerardfdz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 210
Thanked: 60 Times
Default

I not very technical but if my understanding is right - What you are talking applys to
Quote:
""bigger vehicles do have a dedicated vaccum pump(or compressor) to feed booster & not brake fluid directly.""
like trucks tempo's etc.

I would like to quote from somewhere I read a long time ago!(May be How Stuff Works)

Generally four types of power brakes exist. These can be categorized under vacuum suspended; air suspended; hydraulic booster, and electro-hydraulic booster. The first being, the most preferred kind in power brakes.

In cars with vacuum booster type system, the brake pedal pushes the pushrod connected to the pistons within the master cylinder. Simultaneously, the pushrod opens the vacuum-control valve so that it closes the vacuum port and seals off the forward half of the booster unit. The engine vacuum line then creates a low-pressure vacuum chamber. Atmospheric pressure in the control chamber then pushes against the diaphragm. The pressure on the diaphragm forces it forward, supplying pressure on the master cylinder pistons. When the brake pedal is released, outside air supply is sealed off and vacuum valve is reopened. This restores vacuum to both sides of the diaphragm, allowing everything to return to its original position.
Unquote
To the best of my knowledge - A Maruti uses a vaccum booster type.
Gerardfdz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2007, 01:07   #24
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: chennai
Posts: 703
Thanked: 54 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mail4ajo View Post
My Alto has booster brakes. It has run 6500kms till date. After I drove about 800kms continously, I noticed that the brake pedal has more travel (play) than before. When the car was new, the play was very minimal and the brake bite was very sharp. A small feel of the brakes would stop the car.

I checked with the service center and they said that I can't adjust the brakes for the pedal play. They can only tighten the handbrake to get a better brake effect. The braking is fine, but I just love the sharp bite of the brakes. Is it possible to bring it back like new??
Since you have done around 6500 kms ,there would be a honing in of the parts .ie. Your brake pads , liners,etc will have mechanically settled in and the pedal , booster shaft will also have settled in . The brake drums and rotors will have lost their coarseness and this is actually good ,because your tires would have also worn out properly and would be hugging the road much better than when they were new . Even though you will be missing the sharpness ,your will have a much better response and feel . Greasing the handbrake actuator and a simple cleaning of the drum will help you a lot with the braking effect .
greatmana2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2007, 01:11   #25
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: chennai
Posts: 703
Thanked: 54 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gopz View Post
Installing a brake booster for m800, is it really useful and effective? Is it worth the upgrade? I guess it costs around 5000 but is it effective?

It should cost anywhere around 4000 rs . But , I personally feel its a waste of time and money would be better spent on better wheels or tyres .

"Adding a booster does not help braking ,it just lowers the energy required to pump the master cylinder . "

FInally ,you need to have the engine switched on when you have a brake booster ,otherwise the brakes would not work ,but , with a manual brake , even if the engine is switched off the brakes would still work.
greatmana2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2007, 01:16   #26
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: chennai
Posts: 703
Thanked: 54 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by harsh87 View Post
get brake bleeding done or get the hi performance steel braided brake hoses
these things surely work they wont allow any loss of pressure through the steel lines to the caliper

A word of caution here. Steel braided hoses which I have seen in the market are not really of good quality and the inner rubber will get punctured under high pressure . So please use the genuine brake hoses.
greatmana2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2007, 01:49   #27
Senior - BHPian
 
1100D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Calcutta
Posts: 4,179
Thanked: 2,358 Times
Default

Have you checked Fluid Level variations lately. Are you sure there isn't any minute leak in the lines.

Get Bleeding done and then drive around for a few days and check if the condition returns. The Lack of bite can be due to a lower pressure int he lines.

However it can also be brake fade.
1100D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2007, 02:28   #28
Team-BHP Support
 
Zappo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 5,650
Thanked: 2,010 Times
Default

You can try the following IMO
* Check if the pressure is being lost due to some leakage in the master cylinder.
* The brake oil may have trapped air bubbles. Try bleeding the oil and then fill in afresh.
* Check the pads for having gone smooth. Make them coarse. The grip will increase.
Zappo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2015, 13:13   #29
Newbie
 
padmakar.vikas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 20
Thanked: 11 Times
Default Re: Booster Brake Adjustment - Is it possible?

This feels like attempting to revive a dead horse only because this thread is so old now however every bit worth the try. I own a 2011 Maruti Alto LXi which has done around 27000 kilometers till date. According to me the biggest concern with the car is the 'way below par' braking performace. Time and again I have toyed with the idea of getting a Wagon R booster installed in the Alto however at MASS I have been told it cannot be done and then suddenly one day I got an idea of trying the one from the K10 in the F8. Thoughts welcomed, thanks
padmakar.vikas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2015, 17:09   #30
BHPian
 
im_srini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Portland
Posts: 956
Thanked: 368 Times
Infractions: 0/1 (5)
Post Re: Booster Brake Adjustment - Is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by padmakar.vikas View Post
I own a 2011 Maruti Alto LXi which has done around 27,000 kilometers till date.
According to me the biggest concern with the car is the 'way below par' braking performance.
Time and again I have toyed with the idea of getting a Wagon R booster installed in the Alto however at MASS I have been told it cannot be done and then suddenly one day I got an idea of trying the one from the K10 in the F8.
Hi, were you told what the issue with fitting the Wagon-R booster in an Alto was ?
As far as I know, the Lxi ( F8D ) & Vxi ( F10D ) Altos used the same booster - will confirm the part-numbers for the F8D, F10D, & K10 Altos this weekend.
Generally, a 'Brake Overhaul' restores a bit of brake performance in my Altos, & I find the brakes in my Vx better than the ones in my K10.
In my experience it's not the lack of braking pressure that's the issue, but the poor quality pads that are behind the toothless brakes.
For a while, I was running brake pads from EBC ( both the Green & Red stuff ones ) & I can tell you that the braking performance was scary ( in a nice way ).
Stopped using the EBC pads since the amount of brake dust they were shedding was too much to my liking ( they were getting my alloys all dirty )...
im_srini is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is it possible to fit seat height adjustment as an accessory/aftermarket? CrAzY dRiVeR Modifications & Accessories 38 26th March 2016 20:24
Swift Diesel - New Brake Booster Design By Maruti humyum Technical Stuff 181 23rd May 2013 17:12
Brake Booster Failure on a New Ford Fiesta 1.6S. Need help/info! capt_rocker Technical Stuff 37 1st November 2011 17:39
Improving Zen MPFI brakes by fitting an Esteem Type II brake booster etc Trust_In_Thrust Modifications & Accessories 26 6th June 2010 12:42
Brake booster Assembly of the Indigo joecherian Technical Stuff 22 9th June 2009 14:27


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 07:57.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks