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Old 3rd April 2007, 13:35   #31
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I really don’t want to sound like promoting our products, but these are facts….. Mods please free to edit wherever necessary…
From a performance perspective, piggy-backs are no match for standalones. There is’nt much flexibility in going +/- over stock values based on revs, and from what I have seen, most don’t take engine load into consideration ( I may be wrong though )…

For speed density calculations, modified engines never behave the ideal way… Added to that, map sensor readings will be “noisy”, along with varying cylinder filling patterns.. Thanks to the wilder camshaft ,exhaust and intake geometry and profiles.. Either get an ECU capable of filtering out this noise, or work off the TPS as primary load sensor (Alpha N)..

Optimal tune for fuelling and ignition can be done by datalogging wideband AFR and EGT readings.... For full throttle peak performance mapping, dyno is not a must, but a valuable option. Knock sensors are helpful too. There are’nt any generic values for the right amount of fuel and ignition . Just remember, the better the cylinder filling, the lower the ignition advance required. Won’t be surprised if the engine in question needs 40deg at full load 3000RPM , 35 deg at full load 7000RPM and 35 deg at idle....

Don’t see the need to go aftermarket ignition way on a distributor-less setup, as stock will have sufficient energy till atleast 10000 RPMs.

Most standalones come with PC software that gives complete access to required parameters, some even indicate injector duty cycle and ignition dwell limitations… Maps on these ECUs can be rewritten as many times as needed, with the actual process of permanently storing these values on ECU (flashing) usually guaranteed for atleast 100000 times….

As regards duty cycle, I have tested maruti and OHC injectors with 100% IDC in multiples of 20 minute tests… They still work perfect after 30k kms… If it’s a drag car, I really would’nt mind going 100%...

Last edited by rdkarthik : 3rd April 2007 at 13:39.
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Old 3rd April 2007, 13:36   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
PS: Psycho, did you mean you can advance +15 degrees with the stock distributor?

3) I agree with Akshay, gearbox looks pretty especially when you have straight-cut gears in them. LOL.
On the first poiont please read as peak advance can be increased by 15 deg not initial advance.

Yeah straight cut I guess where you are headed to now, and if i think what this is you are already on track with the build.
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Old 4th April 2007, 00:20   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdkarthik View Post
piggy-backs are no match for standalones. There is’nt much flexibility in going +/- over stock values based on revs,.

For speed density calculations, modified engines never behave the ideal way… map sensor readings will be “noisy”, along with varying cylinder filling patterns.. Thanks to the wilder camshaft ,exhaust and intake geometry and profiles.. Either get an ECU capable of filtering out this noise, or work off the TPS as primary load sensor (Alpha N)..

Optimal tune for fuelling and ignition can be done by datalogging wideband AFR and EGT readings....


Don’t see the need to go aftermarket ignition way on a distributor-less setup, as stock will have sufficient energy till atleast 10000 RPMs.

Most standalones come with PC software that gives complete access to required parameters, some even indicate injector duty cycle and ignition dwell limitations… Maps on these ECUs can be rewritten as many times as needed, with the actual process of permanently storing these values on ECU (flashing) usually guaranteed for atleast 100000 times….

As regards duty cycle, I have tested maruti and OHC injectors with 100% IDC in multiples of 20 minute tests… They still work perfect after 30k kms… If it’s a drag car, I really would’nt mind going 100%...
That was quite an informative post karthik. I have some questions:

1) What information does a fuel map contain?

2) Consider this situation: I already have an engine running perfectly on the stock ECU. Then I do all the mods I mentioned earlier. I am anyway changing the intake manifold, so I make a manifold which can take an extra set of injectors. Then I ask those injectors to spray fuel only in the rpm range that I want, through a separate controller. Isnt that simpler than changing stuff in the stock system?

3) How do you actually do the datalogging off of the AFR & EGT. Is it done through a GUI (graphical user interface) software or involves reading of text code?

4) If you retain stock distributorless ignition, how do you finetune the timing advance & curve?

5) What is the significance of IDC? Are you saying that the Maruti injectors are very reliable, or that they flow well enough for a highly modified engine?
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Old 4th April 2007, 02:04   #34
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well ill stick to the electronics part,

the emanage is a good for the price but not as good as it looks. Its slow. Its good for a mildly modded car, it doesnt react fast enough when used on a highly modded car, and it doesnt have half the features as what a standalone can do. Idle cannot be controlled, so with a high lift cam you are bound to have trouble idling, emanage cannot control that. I prefer the blue box to the ultimate, have used it but has it bugs still.

In the standalone range the ones you should look on the cheaper range is halltech, it has good idle control and the injector open timing can be controlled quite well. and its quite reasonably priced. The microtech units have trouble, the injector open time is quite high so when tuning, one point up or one point down is too much lean or too much rich, quite frustrating tuning it. As of now the most feature rich one ive worked on is the motec m800, waiting to try out the efy series, not worked on one yet but seen the working, quite nice. so i totally agree to what rdkarthik said you cant compare a standalone to a piggyback.

just to answer a few of ananth's question in the previous post, the fuel map contains the amount of fuel to be injected at a certian load at a certian rpm. your second question you say you want to use a seperate injector controller, yes you very well can, but for small mods when you need just a little fuel more, its pointless. But when turbocharged you usually get a single additional injector or can add four, but this needs to be precisely tuned. tuning 4 injectors is easier than 8

in the emanage with the ignition harness you can tune ignition advance and retard. You need a good knock sensor, a good fast acting wideband and an egt for your tuning purposes. I use an american 4port knock sensor custom made for my purpose (ears dont last long if not used properly noise is quite harsh), I use the Motec PLM for my wideband needs with a NTK sensor, and FJO EGT for egt...

cheers
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Old 4th April 2007, 03:45   #35
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Dom thanks for that info , now could you kindly give us a list of standalones that would be beneficial to those running mild to highly modified Indian Cars like the VTEC , baleno's and the esteems ?? Also an indicative pricing of these standalones landed in india would be of great help .. Thanks ..
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Old 4th April 2007, 04:32   #36
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Hey DOM , how good is AEM EMS ?
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Old 4th April 2007, 05:19   #37
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Superb discussion. Sorry to have jumped in this late. As explained earlier, simplest way to tune would be to use a wideband Oxygen sensor with data logging facility. Dynojet makes a decent one which retails for about 500 to 600 USD. It allows you to tap into RPM & throttle position also. There is also a recording facility and the entire information can be downloaded onto your laptop for review.

Next as suggested would be EGT - Exhaust Gas Temperature, several brands are available, I use one made by Defi. However I would suggest the safest way to monitor would be to get EGT's for individual cylinder in order to monitor more efficiently / safely.

Third would be to use a knock Sensor in order to get your timing right. If you arent using a standalone / piggyback which supports igniton advance / retard, you may have to invest in an aftermarket ignition timing controller.

As mentioned there is no substitute for a standalone. I would not recomend the SAFC. It does not allow you to control ignition and is extremely slow when mixture is made rich. However I was able to control idle mixture with the SAFC, when I was using a medium grind cam. At that time, that was all it was required to do and so i was happy.

All of the above needs time and patience and is not as easy as it sounds. Ilove the idea of using ITB's, but thats only going to complicate things further. Lets get this one sorted first. And whens the dyno coming ?

Last edited by Sideways : 4th April 2007 at 05:23.
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Old 4th April 2007, 05:29   #38
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Welcome back!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideways View Post
However I would suggest the safest way to monitor would be to get EGT's for individual cylinder in order to monitor more efficiently / safely.
Won't that work out very expensive? Is there a cheaper alternative, like a generic temperature sensor?

Quote:
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And whens the dyno coming ?
You tell us!
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Old 4th April 2007, 05:57   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideways View Post
All of the above needs time and patience and is not as easy as it sounds.
yes exactly.. thats why im still not touching my engine, just waiting when I have loads and loads of time...the tuner can do it but then where's the fun ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideways View Post
I love the idea of using ITB's, but thats only going to complicate things further.
yep... thats why i was suggesting for single TB for our virtual engine..
ive not seen a ECU based ITB setup till now(would love to see those) ..Ive just seen with carbs on a hachiroku and a mx5 in real life, ..and the whole setup on the mx5 was bought off the shelf as a bolt-on..
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Old 4th April 2007, 09:19   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
That was quite an informative post karthik. I have some questions:

1) What information does a fuel map contain?

2) Consider this situation: I already have an engine running perfectly on the stock ECU. Then I do all the mods I mentioned earlier. I am anyway changing the intake manifold, so I make a manifold which can take an extra set of injectors. Then I ask those injectors to spray fuel only in the rpm range that I want, through a separate controller. Isnt that simpler than changing stuff in the stock system?

3) How do you actually do the datalogging off of the AFR & EGT. Is it done through a GUI (graphical user interface) software or involves reading of text code?

4) If you retain stock distributorless ignition, how do you finetune the timing advance & curve?

5) What is the significance of IDC? Are you saying that the Maruti injectors are very reliable, or that they flow well enough for a highly modified engine?
1) As Dom said, its basically amount of fuel to be injected. Can be just a relative number, or actual injector open time in milliseconds. Its a table with RPM vs Load cells. PM me if you want snapshots of them.

2) It sounds simple. But the primary system is not under your control, and you are depending heavily on it for base fuelling. You may have to retune secondary system frequently if OEM ECU is a quick self learner,and its more of a problem if you get a malfunction lndicator (MIL),as ignition and other parameter may go into a milder loop.

If its only an additional fuel controller, you will have problems with ignition and idle with the mods you mention. You may also have problems accurately calibrating fuel with additional injectors all over the rev range.

3) Its already answered

4) Standalones have ignition and dwell control.You set the timing you need. Once configured, it can control all existing systems ( as in our case), or may need ECU specific ignitors and sensors. Ignition control is also based on RPM vs Load tables.

5) A lot of people are worried about going more that 80% IDC. Just saying it should'nt be a problem if its a quarter mile rush . No, marutis are'nt high flow injectors as such.
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Old 4th April 2007, 10:04   #41
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Since we are on the subject and this is a thread for FAQ's, let us try and put down some numbers which will answer specific questions: -

AFR's at idle, load, stoich. EGT's etc. etc. I think all will benefit.

I will start and would request the other tech gurus to please contribute: -

1) Stoich AFR (Air / fuel Ratio) is pegged at 14.7 :1. 14.7 is number of parts of air. As the number of parts of air becomes lower the mixture becomes "RICHER" and as it becomes higher the mixture becomes "LEANER".

2) At idle / cruise AFR in most cars is set between 15 and 16 :1, especially in our country, since everyone wants "MORE MILAGE".

3) It is beleived that max power(in NA cars) is acheived by altering the AFR at max load to 12.8 :1.

4) EGT - Exhaust Gas temperature denotes the temperature at which your engine internals are operating.

5) It is beleived that internal components will start to melt at 950 Degrees Centigrade.

6) Detonation / Knock / Pinging (some call it pinking, don't ask me why) are all the same thing. Basically a result of runnning lean mixture or the timing (ignition) being set incorrectly.

To be continued..................
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Old 4th April 2007, 10:19   #42
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any one aware of the original 1596 cc engines specifications. ....
that is before de tuning to bring in india... in 100 bhp form.. like
cam timing valve timing, valve event., and valve phasing .. ecu code
numbers and its nomencleature. . any site which can give detailss ? ? ?
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Old 4th April 2007, 11:25   #43
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the cheapest good standalone is the halltech e6 etc models. Microtech may be cheaper but is a little irritating to tune.
AEM's ems is good but has idle control trouble on very highly modded cars.
as sideways pointed out 12.8 afr is the ideal value, i stick to 11.5 to 12.8 in all my tuning jobs, reason no 1 is safety, i may loose a little power on the rich side, but heat is lesser, so you could hold 5k rpm cruise for one hour on full boost and be safe, but when lean you cant say what may go wrong. Lean for short bursts would do but for cruising etc is a tad dangerous. 12.8 is a good figure when we dont have a dyno to really know. Some engines respond well to lean tuneups, like the subaru like running lean to make good torque. The mazda's like knock, and yes ive seen that a little knock in some mazda engines do make more power. So till we have a dyno theres no telling what is perfect. But based on many tuner experiences we can get a car tuned 95% to the mark for sure without a dyno.

for the honda's i suggest just swap the ecu to a civic p72, p28 etc chip it and use. Is cheap and is hassle free, not much wiring required, just get a obd2b to obd1 convertor and youre ready to plug an play. The chipping can be done by yourself too, lots of websites explain to do so. else get the hondata units which are similar but are easier to use.

ITB's are very nice, but tuning it is really a pain, i have personally seen two three tuners taking a long while to get it right. Everything has to be perfect. the air entering each cylinder should be balanced, the area behind the itb too should be perfect, else you can get hot air entering one side creating an unbalance in power. but once right the throttle response is amazing and sound too is something crazy. Well on a motec m800 you can put 4 wideband sensors on each cylinder and can tune the motec to correct the fuel mixture individually which is a very nice feature for itb's.


cheers
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Old 4th April 2007, 11:54   #44
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as we were on the topic of fuelling and AFR's ..
can how about taking topic of :
1] selection of fuel pump, fuel rail(if reqd)
2] selection of injector type and size..

hey Dom did you ever require the use of use peakhold type while boosting or the saturated types suited all ur requirements ?

Last edited by chetanhanda : 4th April 2007 at 11:55.
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Old 4th April 2007, 13:24   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post

Won't that work out very expensive? Is there a cheaper alternative, like a generic temperature sensor?


You tell us!
Not necessarily expensive. You will need 4 thermocouples which need to be installed as close to the exhaust manifold as possible. I am sure there are industrial use temperature gauges capable of handling multiple probes. Remember that this setup is required only for tuning and can be removed after all work is completed. With a single probe it is impossible to know if one cylinder is running lean or rich, especially if you want to go the ITB route.

About the dyno - I wish I knew !!!!!
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