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Old 4th April 2007, 19:27   #46
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So lets say that for our virtual engine, we get a standalone that is capable of handling ign timing and idle.

What other components are required?

Sideways - you said that a wideband O2 sensor is required and also a way to monitor the EGT. Are these signals going into the closed loop or are they made visible to the driver through gauges? Also, doesnt the stock system provide a way to monitor these?

----------------

Next Step: Lets say you bought an engine from the junkyard without any of the electronics viz. sensors, ecu etc. What kind of stuff you need to buy and what are the kind of costs involved. like chetan said, selection of fuel pump, rail etc.
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Old 4th April 2007, 19:54   #47
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In order to ananth's forementioned questions i also have a few .. If you are running a G16B with a CR of 12:1 .. My main aim right now isto set the ignition timing right .. Stop the pinging (which i have achieved right now by running it super rich apart from a few other steps like running on open loop) .. I am looking at a simple Standalone which would primararily allow me to get my fuelling and timing right .. What should I be looking at ?? Any other parameters that i need to keep a tab on ??

Dom , regarding the mazda putting out more power when it knocks .. I guess the same is the case with the baleno too ?? With slightly lower octane fuel , with a bit of pinging (across a rev range of 1000 rpm) car felt the fastest and the torquiest .. But obviously damage to the internals is inevitable .. Switching to 97oct + boosters car revved freely but never felt that fast ..
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Old 4th April 2007, 19:56   #48
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Before begining on our virtual engine first we decide
1) what kind of power are we expecting from the current setup?
2) are we going to be N.A or go forced induction way ?
3) what are current limitations of engine?
4) What mods are we going to do on engine like overboring,Hotter Cams,Higher or lower C.r etc etc to acheive the target power?



I If i was suppose to get an engine from junkyard i would first make it operational in stock condition by getting stock or equivalent parts, just put in new oil & coolant, do compression & leak down test and then crank it up.
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Old 4th April 2007, 20:03   #49
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Dom , regarding the mazda putting out more power when it knocks .. I guess the same is the case with the baleno too ?? With slightly lower octane fuel , with a bit of pinging (across a rev range of 1000 rpm) car felt the fastest and the torquiest .. But obviously damage to the internals is inevitable .. Switching to 97oct + boosters car revved freely but never felt that fast ..
With slightly lean A/F ratio i.e 15.1xx & a bit more timing tends to put a tad more pressure on pistons with slightly higher EGT. thats what you must have felt with slightly lower octane fuel & your raised compression to 11.1, yes it does put stress on bearings rods & pistons. since you are very near to MBTT.
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Old 4th April 2007, 20:04   #50
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Originally Posted by Ford Rocam View Post
Before begining on our virtual engine first we decide
1) what kind of power are we expecting from the current setup?
2) are we going to be N.A or go forced induction way ?
3) what are current limitations of engine?
4) What mods are we going to do on engine like overboring,Hotter Cams,Higher or lower C.r etc etc to acheive the target power?
My answers to this would be :
1. 120-140 bhp ??
2. Planning to go NA for the moment .. Once there is no oommpphh factor obv a turbo sometime later this year ..
3. NA the engine has already reached its limits .. Only mods pending are a ECU mod (to be decided) , cam (ordered) , lightened flywheel , stainless steel headgasket , valve springs (ordered) ..
4. Overboard to 1st oversize , hotter cam , higher CR done ..

Jitu , the CR is more like 12 in this case .. Far off from the 11.1 we had set upon earlier ..

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 4th April 2007 at 20:06.
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Old 4th April 2007, 20:16   #51
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[quote=ananthkamath;406336]

Sideways - you said that a wideband O2 sensor is required and also a way to monitor the EGT. Are these signals going into the closed loop or are they made visible to the driver through gauges? Also, doesnt the stock system provide a way to monitor these?

[quote]

The good part about wide band is that it allows you to monitor in open as well as closed loop. The wideband has it's own sensor and does not work off the factory O2 sensor. You have the option of tapping into the factory fitted O2 sensor signal but it's a waste of time, unless you like disco lights in your car.

EGT works irrespective of open or closed loop. There is no connection. it is a simple thermocouple (sensor) which basically relays engine internal temperature. No connection to the ECU or any other electronice required.
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Old 4th April 2007, 22:22   #52
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Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
So lets say that for our virtual engine, we get a standalone that is capable of handling ign timing and idle.
What other components are required?
Sideways - you said that a wideband O2 sensor is required
Sideways has explained this, just adding my 2 cents..
Ananth the stock 02 is narrowband, it will just indicate u are near ideal AFR or off it, it wont show u ranges from lean to rich. the stock narrowband can remain connected to ECU.We will be adding our wideband AFR meter so that our standalone EMS can read the values which the narrowband has no visibility and provide appropriate fuelling and timing curve changes beyond scope of narrowband.

Your question abt closed or open is in correct context.
The AFR is always providing reading to ECU, its just that the ECU decides based on the AFR that it should go into open or closed loop but this is not the only sensor which will determne the open or closed loop.(if any other sensors indicate problems, heating,overrevving etc the ECu will cut power irrespsective of ur AFR)

All these wideband AFR meters can be mounted on the car permanently like a tacho on the dashboard or can be handheld device..depends on ur needs.
basically it is plugged downstream in the exhaust manifold.


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Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
and also a way to monitor the EGT. Are these signals going into the closed loop or are they made visible to the driver through gauges? Also, doesnt the stock system provide a way to monitor these?
again just adding my 2 cents to make u understand better..
regarding EGT, the stock virtual engine of ours is using the ECT sensor to find out how hot the engine is.. it is basically a measurment of the water temperature which is ok for normal use as we are not leaning out so much in stock form
Its now that we are playing with AFR and possibly can lean out by mistake during tuning we need to monitor our EGT, this is the temperature of our exhaust gasses and = to temp of our internals.
the stock ECU gives the 1st priority to ECT for determining the correct fuel and timing needs and then the o2 sensor, some ECU's have a "limp home" system which wil restrict ur power if ur ECT indicates it is running to hot it will load low power maps..
these EGT's are independant of our stock ECU and ECT, these are used by us to make sure we dont melt something, our stock ECU is unaware of this sensor.
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Old 4th April 2007, 22:29   #53
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Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
Next Step: Lets say you bought an engine from the junkyard without any of the electronics viz. sensors, ecu etc. What kind of stuff you need to buy and what are the kind of costs involved. like chetan said, selection of fuel pump, rail etc.
ya , we could decide how much power we are going for ?
are we going to be turboing it etc .. or 1st stick to NA, then go for Turbo, then ITB..
becoz then we may have to consider the "peak and hold" type of injectors otherwise we can stick to stock saturated type injectors for our needs, we may have to alter our wiring as u cant simply drop in peak type in place of saturated type..
after we have got a big pump, injectors etc then if reqd the rail upgrade comes in..

Last edited by chetanhanda : 4th April 2007 at 22:37.
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Old 4th April 2007, 22:31   #54
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Originally Posted by Ford Rocam View Post
With slightly lean A/F ratio i.e 15.1xx & a bit more timing tends to put a tad more pressure on pistons with slightly higher EGT. thats what you must have felt with slightly lower octane fuel & your raised compression to 11.1, yes it does put stress on bearings rods & pistons. since you are very near to MBTT.
hey Rocam how abt getting a knock sensor for our virtual engine..
we can discuss fitting this to our system also..
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Old 4th April 2007, 22:35   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
In order to ananth's forementioned questions i also have a few .. If you are running a G16B with a CR of 12:1 .. My main aim right now isto set the ignition timing right .. Stop the pinging (which i have achieved right now by running it super rich apart from a few other steps like running on open loop) .. I am looking at a simple Standalone which would primararily allow me to get my fuelling and timing right .. What should I be looking at ?? Any other parameters that i need to keep a tab on ??
how about ?
1]exhaust temp
2]knock
3]AFR
4]overrevving as ECU will cut off our fuel supply, something to remove this speed limiter by flashing it out, not sure if the satndalone/piggyback can take care of this
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Old 4th April 2007, 23:06   #56
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Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
how about ?
1]exhaust temp
2]knock
3]AFR
4]overrevving as ECU will cut off our fuel supply, something to remove this speed limiter by flashing it out, not sure if the satndalone/piggyback can take care of this
Ok ...1 more to the list IAT..
this definately needs to be monitored something like readonly types... just to know..
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Old 4th April 2007, 23:08   #57
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Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
DCOE: nomenclature for Weber carburettors which are in side-draft configuration

BP320: nomenclature for Piper camshaft which is a full-race grind (320 deg duration)

CR: compression ratio

ITB: individual throttle bodies, one per cylinder

NFS: need for speed ( the game, hehe)

MAP: manifold absolute pressure (for determining mixture, i suppose???)
MAP , this tells the ECU how much load the engine is under, greater the vacum more the fuel as to taken in. it is based on difference in pressure in the intake as compared to the atmosphere.. as coresponding signal is generated based on this difference which lets ur ECU know how air is taken in and then decides how fuel to put and what timing to use..
these piggyback play with this MAP reading fooling the ECU in thinking they have taken more air and therefore pump more fuel at predefined RPM points..

ok ..back to MAP
so this reading from MAP doesnt give the qty of air directly but gives data to base calculation for finding the air.. based on RPM and amt of air per cylinder, temperature of the air and barometric pressure...
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Old 4th April 2007, 23:14   #58
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4]overrevving as ECU will cut off our fuel supply, something to remove this speed limiter by flashing it out, not sure if the satndalone/piggyback can take care of this
Yes one can flash a stock ECU to change the rev limiter .. For eg the stock esteem and the baleno ECU's can be revved upto 8.5k provided one has a hot cam and valve springs to hold the revvs ..
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Old 4th April 2007, 23:24   #59
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Yes one can flash a stock ECU to change the rev limiter .. For eg the stock esteem and the baleno ECU's can be revved upto 8.5k provided one has a hot cam and valve springs to hold the revvs ..
WOW ...
indian maruti's can rev that high in India... I didn't know that..

Last edited by chetanhanda : 4th April 2007 at 23:26.
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Old 4th April 2007, 23:25   #60
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Yes one can flash a stock ECU to change the rev limiter .. For eg the stock esteem and the baleno ECU's can be revved upto 8.5k provided one has a hot cam and valve springs to hold the revvs ..
Hey Mclaren, is anyone doing this in India?
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