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Old 5th April 2007, 11:56   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vabs78 View Post
WOW! this thread has really become 5 star
Very very informative indeed.

so as for as my understanding goes:
1. We can either use stand alone ECU (which will replace the OEM ECU) or use a piggy back ECU (stand alone seems to be better because you will get PC software with it and better flexibility)
2. We can modify the fuel maps on laptop and then download to ECU
3. We can use dataloging with PC software to see the effect of changes in the fuel maps and make changes accordingly
4. Need to use wide band AFR and EGT sensors/gauges to get correct mixture
5. I think all these will be open loop systems, can we have a close loop system with any standalone ECU?

please tell me everyone if I am going in correct direction?
sorry guys if I am quoting very basic things here trying to learn form all of you



can we replace a con roads? wont it increase the compression ratios of the cylinders?
as far as my understanding goes, crank diameter = stroke length
increase in con road length will just push the entire stroke towards the cylinder head,
yah, it will decrease the angle at which con road pushes the crank, this will improve the abality of con road to carry more power/load at higher rpm
vabs dude ..suggestion ..can we stick to MPFI tuning , we can take the mech mods and upgrades to internals on a diff thread in very much detail...
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Old 5th April 2007, 11:59   #92
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Originally Posted by rdkarthik View Post
It has been widely acknowledged that peak and hold are better.. Inj open times on saturated can be less than 1ms at optimal voltage.
exactly...thats why I was suggesting if we could go for injector type selection if we are going all out crazy after turboing and ITB etc etc...
peak hold always better than saturated even if requires some change to existing wiring..
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Old 5th April 2007, 17:00   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
vabs dude ..suggestion ..can we stick to MPFI tuning , we can take the mech mods and upgrades to internals on a diff thread in very much detail...
whatever you say dude, I didn't start it in the first place
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Old 5th April 2007, 18:43   #94
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Ok now this is a lot of information to read through and most of what i've read is discussion on rod to stroke ratio and other stuff like different types of injectors. Let us please stick to the task at hand so that the thread doesnt become hard to read, which it is now.

Lets stick to the following right now:


We have a generic SOHC engine, dont care if its Honda or Suzuki or whatever that we bought from the junkyard.

It has a 320 cam (top race profile). The entire valvetrain is updated.

Headers have been added and the cylinder head is shaved and ported.

The engine will NOT be running a turbo or nitrous oxide for now. We ll add that option later.

You just bought the bare engine from the junkyard and therefore, do NOT have any of the sensors, viz. ECT, MAP, Lambda, knock sensor etc.

My question is this: What are the components to be bought in order to make this engine run, and make it tuneable as per our requirements?

Last edited by ananthkamath : 5th April 2007 at 19:03.
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Old 5th April 2007, 22:10   #95
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hey ananth, we are on track , can we continue with fuel pump and injector selection...
1] the next step is selection of these after calculating how much fuel we require...
2]injectors are part of MPFI, if the standalone does not support peak hold at a later stage then we will have to buy a diff one.
3]selection of a EMS/AFC either motec, AEM, greddy, Apexi etc etc

selection of injectors is not going off the topic as we were discussing fuelling and timing, the bore x stroke and rod/stroke discussion maybe not be totally off as we were discussing if the ECU needed to allow the engine to run upto high rpms like 8000 to 10,000 etc..

so if the high revs were not suitable to our rod/stroke then why go that high ?... plus if we went that high then we need to select hi performance injectors so the injectors are very relevant to this thread..
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Old 5th April 2007, 22:13   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Hehe...I have a standalone so I wouldnt need this one. My RD0601 Race ecm gives me the flexibility to set my revv limitter wherever I require precisely and a lot more without any hazzles!!!

Mcl/V1p3r: Take your 7 bucks and stock ecm, knock RDKarthiks door...you wont be disappointed I reckon.

Lets stick to the topic guys...
hey wolf can u give us some more details abt your standalone..
1] how much u got it for
2] how did u adapt to ur existing wiring harness
3] how did u start using it, i mean initial calibration, monitoring some parameters etc...
4] Most importantly how did you control the fuel and the timing..
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Old 6th April 2007, 00:23   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
hey wolf can u give us some more details abt your standalone..
1] how much u got it for
2] how did u adapt to ur existing wiring harness
3] how did u start using it, i mean initial calibration, monitoring some parameters etc...
4] Most importantly how did you control the fuel and the timing..

Firstly, for the benefit of everyone here, I use 'Race dynamics:
RD0601-Race' ecm.

The brain behind RACE dynamics(racedynamics.in)ecms is nobody but our own tbhpian RDKarthik. He makes, tunes, markets and supports his products.

Well answering to your questions:
1) Would prefer you guys PM'ing RDKarthik for price details.

2) The ecm can be made to sit on original harness using an additional bypass harness or a fully seperate one.

3) The ecm has 3 modes driven by a simple switch: 1st being OE, 2nd mode is valet mode and 3rd is race mode.

All the maps have to be tuned on the drive for maximum performance coz it only comes with base maps. All it takes is to connect a laptop with the software to the ecm and modify values. It can either be tuned by the user if he knows how to use the software provided with the product or Race Dynamics will do it. Karthik tunes my car himself so I dont bother much to tune and stuff!

The software that comes with the product is infact a fairly simple one and few sessions on it should give anyone a fair idea of how its used given a fair bit of prior understanding! It has all the details and readings.

Few pics of the software from the product website:

::RACE DYNAMICS::

::RACE DYNAMICS::

::RACE DYNAMICS::

4) Refer point number 3.

Let me know if you require any more inf...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdkarthik
That info was for you. I think its inappropriate to put it up on the forum.
.
Dude, I just wanted to make the tbhpians be aware of how cheap that trick is and not be fooled when someone charges them few thousand bucks for it!!!

Last edited by The Wolf : 6th April 2007 at 00:43.
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Old 6th April 2007, 00:49   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
My question is this: What are the components to be bought in order to make this engine run, and make it tuneable as per our requirements?
1) Go get the necessary sensors and wiring harness, these you defineately need irrespective of whether or not you are running the original or aftermarket stand alone ecu.

2) Design headers keeping in mind nature of Cam i.e. when it kicks in etc etc. This would be one thing you will need to concentrate on. A beautifully and correctly designed header does wonders. Design your exhaust carefully.

3) With the kind of Cam profile you are running, idling is going to be a huge freaking pain in the wrong place. At tis point choice of ECM which can handle idle control will be important. Would also recomend adjustable Cam pulley, but you have to know how to use it.

4) High flow fuel pump and injectors to aid the fuelling will be next in line.

5) Plug in a Wide band O2 in order to monitor fueling correctly at different rpm points etc. Preferably one that has a datalogging facility will be of great help in order for you to review and make desisions later.

6) Since you are not going in for a turbo and NOS setup, in my opinion investing in an EGT for the moment can be set aside. Instead invest in a good Oil pressure and Oil temperature gauge.

7) You will also need a very good clutch.

Since you have mentioned that the head has been worked on I am assuming that you have taken care of valve springs etc etc.

Make sure you are running the right set of plugs and that the plug gap is adjusted properly. With that much of air and fuel going in you are gonna need a big spark to make big power. Some really good Gas. Higher the Octane the better.

I think the above will help you get satrted. i am sure the other tech guru's will pitch in and make their addtions and hopefully correct any mistakes I have made.
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Old 6th April 2007, 01:56   #99
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Farhan bhai, you have summed up all the requirements neatly... I dont think anything else would be of higher priority than whats mentioned.

Ananth, can you give the cam specs pls... lift, duration, overlap etc...
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Old 6th April 2007, 02:42   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
Ok now this is a lot of information to read through and most of what i've read is discussion on rod to stroke ratio and other stuff like different types of injectors. Let us please stick to the task at hand so that the thread doesnt become hard to read, which it is now.

Lets stick to the following right now:


We have a generic SOHC engine, dont care if its Honda or Suzuki or whatever that we bought from the junkyard.

It has a 320 cam (top race profile). The entire valvetrain is updated.

Headers have been added and the cylinder head is shaved and ported.

The engine will NOT be running a turbo or nitrous oxide for now. We ll add that option later.

You just bought the bare engine from the junkyard and therefore, do NOT have any of the sensors, viz. ECT, MAP, Lambda, knock sensor etc.

My question is this: What are the components to be bought in order to make this engine run, and make it tuneable as per our requirements?
I think we are not making correct start we are getting an engine from junk yard whose current & past state we dont know it has a race cam but no sensors dont know whats ecu is running no wiring harness the previous owner has modified the engine & raised c.r & done what not and now its in junk yard,
dont you guys think we should get a stock engine to work upon which has been untouched though it may not have sensors but that can be arranged same with ecu, plug everything with new oil coolant etc.. & fire it up but wait ... we need to put the engine in a car so which car we go for & what about engine mounting drive train etc etc the list is long its always better to start from scratch.
according to me

1) Get a stock engine first, check for any physical damage
2) Setting up of wiring harness all sensors injectors
3) stock manifold int/ex stock ecu preferably,stk injectors
4) new oil, coolant etc
5) setting up Gear lever, clutch, brakes etc
6) installing engine in car with proper mountings fabrications

starting the car & do test drive, do compression & leak down test to check current state of health of engine.

once we have a car which stock reliable then we proceed next for modification which can be done in stages.
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Old 6th April 2007, 02:45   #101
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you misunderstood. WE bought the engine stock, and then WE added all the stuff I mentioned.


lets all leave the mechanical stuff out of this. its quite basic that if I change to a race profile 320 cam, I would change the valve springs to go along with this. Its also quite basic that with all the motor mods done I would go to the trouble of making headers. Same for the mounting and same for the rod-stroke ratio etc. Lets concentrate on JUST the electronics here.

Remember what I said in the very first post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
I am sure a lot of people on this forum know what's involved in tuning a fuel-injection system (bigger injectors, ecu remap etc) after adding some bolt-ons like headers, cam etc or porting the head.

But then there are people like me who would rather use carbs because they dont know enough about (or are even scared of) tuning the fuel injection system.
The cam specs, head specs are all quite immaterial. I am pretty sure the information is enough to work with and suggest what needs to be done.

Last edited by ananthkamath : 6th April 2007 at 02:50.
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Old 6th April 2007, 03:01   #102
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Oh. i Apologize.

so can you put up list of mods done & whats next planned
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Old 6th April 2007, 03:09   #103
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I'm a little confused as well...
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Old 6th April 2007, 11:49   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
My question is this: What are the components to be bought in order to make this engine run, and make it tuneable as per our requirements?
Assuming you are using an external wideband kit, just to get it going you need

1) Position sensor -
Crank position sensor (CKP) - Must if going distributor-less dual coil with batch/semi-sequential injection
Cam postion sensor (CMP) - which signals at a min 180deg of crank, if its distributor type with batch/semi-sequential
Ckp and Cmp - For fully sequential needs.

My suggestion - Stick to a Ckp for now. These sensors need just 2 wires

2) Map sensor - Perferably an ECU with an on-board map sensor, which means no external wiring required.

These two sensors will get the engine up and working. After that, go for correction factors and refinement ( ECT, IAT, TPS, lambda)

Custom wiring is not too difficult to build as long as you have connectors for injectors and ignitors/coils.
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Old 7th April 2007, 03:38   #105
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I think what ananth is saying is, he wants to concentrate only on the electronics in this thread. The only reason he has mentioned mechanicals like Cam profile, CR etc is to give a basic starting place to build the electronics upon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdkarthik View Post
1) Position sensor -
Crank position sensor (CKP) - Must if going distributor-less dual coil with batch/semi-sequential injection
Cam postion sensor (CMP) - which signals at a min 180deg of crank, if its distributor type with batch/semi-sequential
Ckp and Cmp - For fully sequential needs.
RDK,

Can you give us an idea of which indian cars (engines) have just CKP and no CMP and which engines have both.
Also are there any engines which have CMP and no CKP ?

Is it feasible to install a CMP to a head which came without it as OEM ?

cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 7th April 2007 at 03:40.
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