Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th April 2007, 13:02   #16
BHPian
 
nitroxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: DXB
Posts: 817
Thanked: 26 Times
Default

chetan,I think somewhere..on the other side of the planet you've flapped your wings,thats created a butterfly effect....so much for the tuners in india,goin on about hp increase by plugs and wires...keep up the good work!
nitroxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th April 2007, 13:17   #17
Senior - BHPian
 
ported_head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 2,391
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
can you post the link or something.
Here is a link showing comparisons for some D series engine headers, they have dyno charts for some of the headers. Some make 10 whp peak. Of course dynos can be manipulated...

D-Series Header Comparison
ported_head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th April 2007, 13:28   #18
BHPian
 
rdkarthik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: bangalore
Posts: 206
Thanked: 11 Times
Default

Temperature signal modifiers - They cannot give 15% to 20% bhp gains. They do make a small difference, but not in significant percentile gains.

Map sensor signals modifiers - They can better part throttle peformance, but again cannot give 15% to 25%

ECUs- Tuned for the specific engine, gains can vary from 5%(stock engine) to more than 30% (fully worked on, with all mods).
rdkarthik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th April 2007, 14:03   #19
BHPian
 
chetanhanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 886
Thanked: 42 Times
Default

3] Air filter/CAI

this may help but depending upon how u have installed it and if u have installed it correctly are you really making use of the extra air with a stock engine.. ?
most common setup done is
(a) removal of stock air box
(b)removal of the stock pipe and repalcing by a metal tube(this metal tube is not considered so important by 99% of people, its the colorful conical filter which gets the most attaraction)
(c) attach the conical filter at the tip

as a result the filter ends up located somewhere near the position where the stock air box was ..
guess whats wrong ?
(a) u are sucking in hotter air from the engine bay.
(b) as seen in some engine bays there is lack of space so the tube from the air filter to the Throttle body is routed above the engine block or very clsoe to it without any heat sheilding/wraps..
so u r further increasing the air temp.
(c) rerouting the air intake to the oustside box but with a very convulated piping also will not be that useful as we need to make sure the air flow is straight..with minimum twists..
also the pipe should not have kinks in it , the hi end systems come with mandrel bent pipes to make sure the flow of air is smooth as possible.. but do the budget ones have these kind of smooth flowing pipes

extreme cases MAF sensor to be upgraded to handle extra flow of air but thats in extreme cases...

in many setups the stock pipe and air box provide more heat sheilding and insulation than these CAI setups

Ok even if this setup is done right by rerouting to some where below the front bumper or front tyre then .. what next ?are u really
going to make much BHP ? say max 1 or 2 BHP.. dont think its going to make more than that in any stock indian engine... which is detuned for 84 octane and bad fuel..

hey but the intake growl is worth the install but at expense of what ? make sure ur not sucking in hot air from a convulated pipe snaking around in ur engine bay and may be make 1-2 bhp on ur stock engine which can be negligble.. but plz dude dont expect more..

Last edited by chetanhanda : 6th April 2007 at 14:06.
chetanhanda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th April 2007, 15:03   #20
Senior - BHPian
 
ported_head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 2,391
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdkarthik View Post
Temperature signal modifiers - They cannot give 15% to 20% bhp gains. They do make a small difference, but not in significant percentile gains.
Is this what the Tri-Phase module does? Maybe you guys and Viper can explain better. Thats what I could make out from the excerpt given on the website:
3: Tri-Phase Performance Module

To quote:" In short, when the engine compartment heats up, some sensors that relay pertinent fuel curve contingent information to the ECU begin to lose accuracy due to heat absorption into the sensor. The ECU then reads these incorrect signals, and leans out, or otherwise incorrectly alters the fuel curve, which hampers performance. These errors cannot be corrected from within the computer, there must be an independant unit to correct these errors. The Tri-Phase is designed to automatically compensate for these signal errors."

Maybe it connects to more than one sensor. Hence makes bigger difference. If Viper could tell us what all sensors it hooks upto and modifies their signals.
I could be wrong, I'd just like to know.

Last edited by ported_head : 6th April 2007 at 15:05.
ported_head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th April 2007, 15:04   #21
Senior - BHPian
 
gigy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: mumbai
Posts: 1,321
Thanked: 41 Times
Default

Finally things are straightening up , i can say. At many times my points were ignored about actual performance increase. i think this thread will bring all facts together in one place and help all Tbhpns to actually gain some performance.
gigy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 6th April 2007, 16:06   #22
BANNED
 
mclaren1885's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bangalore (the city of modded cars) !!
Posts: 4,821
Thanked: 28 Times
Infractions: 0/1 (10)
Default

I guess the mods can make this a STICKY and move it to the BEST THREADS ??

Chetan , even worse case is most of them get these HUMONGOUS conical air filters though there is no use specially when a smaller one could suffice .. I have seen some really bad installs most of them on swifts (including a few TCed ones) .. More than improving performance the engine sucks in hot air and hampers whatever gain one is expecting ..
mclaren1885 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th April 2007, 22:29   #23
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 20
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdkarthik View Post
Temperature signal modifiers - They cannot give 15% to 20% bhp gains. They do make a small difference, but not in significant percentile gains.

Map sensor signals modifiers - They can better part throttle peformance, but again cannot give 15% to 25%

ECUs- Tuned for the specific engine, gains can vary from 5%(stock engine) to more than 30% (fully worked on, with all mods).
Sir,

I'm sorry, but you are misleading TBHP users on several points, this one, I must address. You may indeed be correct regarding percentage gains, though no one that is serious about dyno testing, or selling a product, should be quoting in percentage gains. For example, a 5% bolt-on gain on a Nissan 350Z is nearly impossible for a single mod. 5% of 306 hp is over 15 hp, and just not going to happen. Why? Because the car is tuned fairly aggressively from Nissan. The exhaust is free flowing, the ECU tuning is aggressive, the intake is efficient, etc. Yet, some companies are quoting gains in terms of 15, 20, 25%, and even more.

Onto the products you mentioned above...both Temp and MAP piggybacks have the potential to increase power gains in the 15-20 hp range, sometimes a bit more, depending on the vehicle. Is that typical? No. Most gains are in the 8-14 hp range, but making it seem like both are rather ineffective is not correct. It is true that reprogramming your ECU is going to give you the most flexibility, and like a slightly higher gain...you have a lot more to work with, but you also have a higher price (generally). You also have a mod that is permanent. You can't turn it off, and you can't unplug it. Pros and cons to both...the right application depends on the person who is doing the mod, and what their needs are. An ECU flash should yield a higher gain than a piggyback module, and a full set of underdrive pulleys should yield a higher gain than just a crank pulley...but the higher power gain is not always the correct choice for a particular person, and shouldn't be considered the default choice.

A good rule of thumb -> anything that seems to good to be true, usually is.

You can "fluff" the issue anyway you like it. The goal, regarding ECU tuning, is changing the air/fuel ratio, and the appropriate timing adjustments to compensate. You can use any flashy terms that you want, but that's the goal. With a piggyback unit, you have to keep the oxygen content in the exhaust, post mod, within a range that is acceptable by your o2 sensors, or else you will get a check engine light, and in a late model car, the gains will begin being tuned out by the ECU, to bring the exhaust oxygen content back to an acceptable level (this is where MAP piggybacks usually fail - the MAP signal has such a profound input on the a/f ratio, the fuel mix becomes too rich, and is tuned out after a few hours of driving). Same goal with reprogramming the ECU, the only difference is that you can alter what the "acceptable range" of exhaust oxygen content is within the ECU...this "cheat" isn't unlimited...the range programmed by the automaker is for emissions - you are still limited by what is physically effiicient (i.e. going further than 13:1 on a naturally aspirated car is just going to lower your fuel economy, cause a knock, make the exhaust black, and cause power gains to being to fall off, since the car can't combust the fuel thoroughly). Now, if you want to kill your rev limiter or speed limiter, reprogramming the ECU may be the way to go - don't push the car more than a few hundred RPM over the factory rev limiter, and going past the speed limiter is just unwise - but if thats your goal, that's your call.

Sorry for being wordy, just had to dispel this myth. It doesn't matter how you do it, just so that you stay within a) the tolerance of the o2 sensor, and b) the limits of physics - Temp, MAP, and ECU Flash all have the potential to do it.

And here's another -> someone made the comment about a car working as a "system" - good advice. The better a car breathes, the better off you will be in your modding endeavors. Start with intake and exhaust, then go with something to bring your a/f ratio back inline (it will most likely be running lean after those mods), either a piggyback Temp or MAP module, or an ECU flash, whichever fits your goal and your budget. Then go from there. If you want to go further, underdrive pulleys are usually a good buy. If your budget is in the $3,000+ (USD) range, you might as well go forced induction - just keep the boost reasonable to prevent engine damage, unless you have a serious budget, and are going to build your engine first.

Spark plugs, plug wires, grounding kits -> mostly creating imaginary gains. Yes, they do provide some benefit, but in terms of whp, they are quite small.
nextlevel350z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th April 2007, 22:33   #24
Senior - BHPian
 
ported_head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 2,391
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Ok, so what all sensors does the Tri-Phase modify the signals from?


In the meanwhile, here is a good read on performance cables.
http://asia.vtec.net/beystock/tuning/plugcable.html

Last edited by ported_head : 6th April 2007 at 22:35.
ported_head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th April 2007, 22:58   #25
BHPian
 
chetanhanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 886
Thanked: 42 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ported_head View Post
Here is a link showing comparisons for some D series engine headers, they have dyno charts for some of the headers. Some make 10 whp peak. Of course dynos can be manipulated...

D-Series Header Comparison
ok..
lets go through each chart one by one ..and lets assume the Dyno is not manipulated for this..

1] (a)the 1st dyno chart is with a D16 engine which makes 130 BHP in its stock form with no mods none of our Indian Honda's are D16 and make 130 BHP in stock form.
(b) secondly the D16 on the Dyno is not stock, it is running bismoto cam and valvetrain,11:1 CR and RS head
(c) the fuel quality is much better in US and the ECU's are tuned for more power as compared to Indian ECUs

considering point (a) (b) and (c) if they make 6 WHP , it is feasible.
but is it feasible on a stock Indian Honda engine I dont think 10 WHP is possible..

2]
(a)The second dyno chart shows a D16 and to reiterate its more powerful in stock form than our Indian stock Honda
(b)To add to this, the D16 in consideration is not even stock it is a "Bisimoto hi compression prototype"

this "prototype hi compression D16" can make 10 WHP with those headers , but will a stock Indian Honda with normal compression also make 10 WHP is doubtful


3]
(a) The 3rd dyno chart is showing a D16Z6 which again in stock form already makes more power than our Indian Honda in stock form
(b) Its a 1600 cc engine tuned with ECU for octane in US
Its basically a bigger engine running better fuel and making more BHP so it will make more gains with a header as compared to the Indian 1500 cc engine with a ECU detuned for low octane/bad fuel making only 106 BHP ..

consider (a) and (b), do u think we can get 10 BHP with same race header bolted to our Indian Honda.. ?

I think all 3 dyno charts in the link are covererd.
guys what u think ? can we directly relate to those dyno readouts to ur stock Honda engines ? also dyno charts of same engine with JDM or USDM ECU cannot be same for our Indian ECU..

Last edited by chetanhanda : 6th April 2007 at 23:10.
chetanhanda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th April 2007, 23:07   #26
BHPian
 
chetanhanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 886
Thanked: 42 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ported_head View Post
In the meanwhile, here is a good read on performance cables.
http://asia.vtec.net/beystock/tuning/plugcable.html
Awesome Dude !!
this is what I was trying to say all along ..
plug wires = nice looking under the hood but dont make 3+ BHP in a stock engine...unless ur original cables are borrowed from a rusted car lying in the bottom of the ocean for the past 100 yrs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
I guess the mods can make this a STICKY and move it to the BEST THREADS ??

Chetan , even worse case is most of them get these HUMONGOUS conical air filters though there is no use specially when a smaller one could suffice .. I have seen some really bad installs most of them on swifts (including a few TCed ones) .. More than improving performance the engine sucks in hot air and hampers whatever gain one is expecting ..
yeah...right !!
conical filter big enough to feed twin turboes in a drag spec skyline connected to a small dia tube made of tin with kinks ...

Last edited by ported_head : 7th April 2007 at 00:16. Reason: Please use edit function when posting within 20 minutes.
chetanhanda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th April 2007, 01:07   #27
Senior - BHPian
 
V-16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: mumbai
Posts: 4,575
Thanked: 844 Times
Default

This is great. I Have been not posting in "certain" Threads for want of words to say to self professed "mod dudes" I am so glad that a sensibly educating thread has been started. Keep it up guys but dont get pompous about it.
V-16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th April 2007, 01:41   #28
Senior - BHPian
 
ported_head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Mumbai, India
Posts: 2,391
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
This is great. I Have been not posting in "certain" Threads for want of words to say to self professed "mod dudes" I am so glad that a sensibly educating thread has been started. Keep it up guys but dont get pompous about it.
Sirji, the intentions are good. We just need help from the Pros on this topic, all of whom have been surprisingly silent, barring a few.
ported_head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th April 2007, 02:05   #29
BHPian
 
chetanhanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 886
Thanked: 42 Times
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
but dont get pompous about it.
sure dude !! we will take care..
PM if u think the tone is not right ..

Last edited by chetanhanda : 7th April 2007 at 02:08.
chetanhanda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th April 2007, 02:26   #30
Senior - BHPian
 
v1p3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: BLR - chasing cars...
Posts: 4,836
Thanked: 26 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
1] (a)the 1st dyno chart is with a D16 engine which makes 130 BHP in its stock form with no mods none of our Indian Honda's are D16 and make 130 BHP in stock form.
JDM D15B engines, the same as our Indian Vtecs, with a different intake manifold and ECM, and some slight construction differences, put out 134 bhp.
v1p3r is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Cayenne" we "XC-eed" in our "Endeavour" to "Safari"? Taking powerful metal off-road SS-Traveller 4x4 Excursions 55 10th November 2016 22:56
Dude wheres your car? The "invisible" car from Merc vinod332002 The International Automotive Scene 13 6th July 2012 17:18
Rtech dude......correct if i'm wrong. Shan2nu Shifting gears 16 20th May 2004 17:26


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 07:30.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks