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Old 7th April 2007, 03:25   #31
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Gordon Jennings, the famed 2-stroke engine expert and author of "The Two-Stroke Tuners handbook" said in the 1970s, and I quote:

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The first serious mistake a layman experimenter can make is to assume that those who designed and manufactured his particular engine didnt know what they were doing.

The professional engineer knows very well,......all engines are compromised, from what you might consider an ideal, in the interest of manufacturing economy and broad usefulness.

Another mistake commonly made,....is to believe in a kind of mechanistic magic. ....bigger carbs, higher compression ratios, ...often do bring an an improvement in power output, but more and bigger is not instantly, magically better. All must work in concert with the basic engine, directed towards the particular application, before they constitute a genuine improvement.

You cannot treat them as a voodoo incantation, hoping that if you mutter the right phrases and stir the chicken entrails in the prescribed manner, your mild-mannered, all-purpose chuffer will be transformed into a hyperhorsepower firebreather. With a lot of luck, you might get that result; the chances heavily are that you wont.
I am sure everyone here can understand what he is trying to say. Truer words couldnt be spoken even today, in the 21st century.


My idea here is not to argue or belittle anyone, but to make us, the consumers, better informed. Therefore it goes without saying that I mean no offense to any of the tuners or people selling performance parts.
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Old 7th April 2007, 03:27   #32
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Originally Posted by nextlevel350z View Post
no one that is serious about dyno testing, or selling a product, should be quoting in percentage gains.
Completely agree. All figures should be model-specific and absolute.

I was just checkin your website out, and I came across this: Observed Horsepower Test Range -- 9 - 20 Hp. I also see that some of the cars you have listed are sold in India (atleast their engines are), like the Geo Tracker, Suzuki Sidekick etc. Does this mean that a Tri-Phase Performance Module will give me atleast 9 Hp on my stock 94 Hp?
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Old 7th April 2007, 03:41   #33
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
JDM D15B engines, the same as our Indian Vtecs, with a different intake manifold and ECM, and some slight construction differences, put out 134 bhp.
ok, but I am mentioning stock in every sentence to stress the point that Im saying stock..
so if its stock then its = 106 BHP, if its modded as u have mentioned with ECM,intake and slight construction diff then its a diff story, gains will be more , no arguments at all...
so are on same page now ?

Last edited by chetanhanda : 7th April 2007 at 03:44.
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Old 7th April 2007, 03:44   #34
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i think he also meant stock; by "different manifold and ECM" he meant to say "different manifold and ECM from the factory" which, by defn, is stock
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Old 7th April 2007, 06:01   #35
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JDM cars have a manifold and some other things which differ from the Indian cars. They come stock with 134 bhp.
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Old 7th April 2007, 10:52   #36
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Originally Posted by nextlevel350z View Post
Sir,

I'm sorry, but you are misleading TBHP users on several points, this one, I must address. You may indeed be correct regarding percentage gains, though no one that is serious about dyno testing, or selling a product, should be quoting in percentage gains.
My point exactly!! Okay, then why does the write-up of your product in autocar march issue page 31 claims 15% to 20% iomprovement of torque and pick-up?

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For example, a 5% bolt-on gain on a Nissan 350Z is nearly impossible for a single mod. 5% of 306 hp is over 15 hp, and just not going to happen. Why? Because the car is tuned fairly aggressively from Nissan. The exhaust is free flowing, the ECU tuning is aggressive, the intake is efficient, etc. Yet, some companies are quoting gains in terms of 15, 20, 25%, and even more.
totally agree

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Onto the products you mentioned above...both Temp and MAP piggybacks have the potential to increase power gains in the 15-20 hp range, sometimes a bit more, depending on the vehicle. Is that typical? No. Most gains are in the 8-14 hp range, but making it seem like both are rather ineffective is not correct.
Like you said, its is not fair to talkabout bhp improvement. Cars with 300 or 400 bhp, the claims may be fair.. but NOT on cars we have in India. Is'nt a rough percentage gains a much better figure?

Quote:

It is true that reprogramming your ECU is going to give you the most flexibility, and like a slightly higher gain...you have a lot more to work with, but you also have a higher price (generally). You also have a mod that is permanent. You can't turn it off, and you can't unplug it. Pros and cons to both...the right application depends on the person who is doing the mod, and what their needs are. An ECU flash should yield a higher gain than a piggyback module, and a full set of underdrive pulleys should yield a higher gain than just a crank pulley...but the higher power gain is not always the correct choice for a particular person, and shouldn't be considered the default choice.
Since you are discussing products (mods pls feel free to edit if necessary)

Price- Standalones are available for price a little more than your product

Flexiblity of install - There are standalones that can be plugged in and off i.e. not permanent

Driving modes - These standalones also can be switched between "stock" and performance modes

The point in question is about claimed percentage gains, not about which product suits better.

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A good rule of thumb -> anything that seems to good to be true, usually is.
You can "fluff" the issue anyway you like it. The goal, regarding ECU tuning, is changing the air/fuel ratio, and the appropriate timing adjustments to compensate. You can use any flashy terms that you want, but that's the goal. With a piggyback unit, you have to keep the oxygen content in the exhaust, post mod, within a range that is acceptable by your o2 sensors, or else you will get a check engine light, and in a late model car, the gains will begin being tuned out by the ECU, to bring the exhaust oxygen content back to an acceptable level (this is where MAP piggybacks usually fail - the MAP signal has such a profound input on the a/f ratio, the fuel mix becomes too rich, and is tuned out after a few hours of driving). Same goal with reprogramming the ECU, the only difference is that you can alter what the "acceptable range" of exhaust oxygen content is within the ECU...this "cheat" isn't unlimited...the range programmed by the automaker is for emissions - you are still limited by what is physically effiicient (i.e. going further than 13:1 on a naturally aspirated car is just going to lower your fuel economy, cause a knock, make the exhaust black, and cause power gains to being to fall off, since the car can't combust the fuel thoroughly). Now, if you want to kill your rev limiter or speed limiter, reprogramming the ECU may be the way to go - don't push the car more than a few hundred RPM over the factory rev limiter, and going past the speed limiter is just unwise - but if thats your goal, that's your call.
All the stuff you mention about closed loop AFR control does not apply to all cars. There are many ways to get over them too.

With all due respect, going lower than 13:1 DOES NOT CAUSE KNOCK, BLACK EXHAUST or DROP POWER. Sir, have you ever even tried to tune an engine????

True regarding overrevving, it should not exceed engine limitations BUT again, its very car specific.

Quote:

Sorry for being wordy, just had to dispel this myth. It doesn't matter how you do it, just so that you stay within a) the tolerance of the o2 sensor, and b) the limits of physics - Temp, MAP, and ECU Flash all have the potential to do it.
a) Almost all cars come OE with narrow band sensors that do not exceed 1000mv at roughly 0.9 to 0.8 lambda.

b) Agree

I still dont see any concrete justification of your product claims.

Last edited by rdkarthik : 7th April 2007 at 10:57.
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Old 7th April 2007, 11:02   #37
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Originally Posted by ported_head View Post
Sirji, the intentions are good. We just need help from the Pros on this topic, all of whom have been surprisingly silent, barring a few.
... Jaago India Jaago!! I appreciate the good intentions but my only,...er how should i say,..concern, is this thread should not be used to getting at or back at individuals. Im sure even mods have been keeping a close watch due to the same reasons...nothing just a concerned team mate.
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Old 7th April 2007, 12:44   #38
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Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
Im sure even mods have been keeping a close watch due to the same reasons...nothing just a concerned team mate.
Yes, we are... This thread should focus on busting myths, and not the people who believe or propagate the myth.
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Old 7th April 2007, 13:12   #39
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@nextlevel350z
Pls note I do not have anything personal against anyone here..

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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
This thread should focus on busting myths, and not the people who believe or propagate the myth.
I apologize if my reply was too blunt..

Last edited by rdkarthik : 7th April 2007 at 13:17.
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Old 7th April 2007, 14:38   #40
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
Completely agree. All figures should be model-specific and absolute.

I was just checkin your website out, and I came across this: Observed Horsepower Test Range -- 9 - 20 Hp. I also see that some of the cars you have listed are sold in India (atleast their engines are), like the Geo Tracker, Suzuki Sidekick etc. Does this mean that a Tri-Phase Performance Module will give me atleast 9 Hp on my stock 94 Hp?
Tough to say only knowing what the current power output of your motor is. Everything on our website is geared and directed at the North American market, the fact that we have vehicle models in both countries donning the same name doesn't necessarily mean the Indian spec vehicle. Most of our overseas advertising and sales are done through our authorized dealers, and does not appear on our website.
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Old 7th April 2007, 15:02   #41
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Originally Posted by rdkarthik View Post
My point exactly!! Okay, then why does the write-up of your product in autocar march issue page 31 claims 15% to 20% iomprovement of torque and pick-up?

I've never seen a single issue of autocar, and we haven't ever placed an ad there, so I couldn't tell you.


totally agree



Like you said, its is not fair to talkabout bhp improvement. Cars with 300 or 400 bhp, the claims may be fair.. but NOT on cars we have in India. Is'nt a rough percentage gains a much better figure?

I'm not sure where you are trying to go with that...our top performing product is actually a Tri-Phase for a naturally aspirated PT Cruiser...i'm not sure if you guys have a version of that in your region..dyno gains exceed 20whp gain, and the car is a 4 cylinder. I think for electronic upgrades, the possible gain is more determined by how conservative the factory tuning is, not by the displacement of the motor. Just my personal opinion. And no, I don't think that classifying an entire group of mods with a general percentage range is a good idea. For example, take the Tri-Phase - if we quoted in percentage gains, we would have to quote something like 3% - 18%. 10 whp on an 06 350Z = 3% (tuned pretty much for the track, right from Nissan). 21 whp on a PT Cruiser = 18+% (conservative tuning, for a car that targets people in the 55+ age group). To me, 3 - 18% isn't very descriptive. In fact, its almost pointless to generalize about a particular group of mods, which I believe was my original point.


Since you are discussing products (mods pls feel free to edit if necessary)


Price- Standalones are available for price a little more than your product

Point is?

Flexiblity of install - There are standalones that can be plugged in and off i.e. not permanent

None of our products are permanent. The Tri-Phase in question can be made completely passive with the flip of a switch.

Driving modes - These standalones also can be switched between "stock" and performance modes

Again, I fail to see the point?

The point in question is about claimed percentage gains, not about which product suits better.

I think it's a great idea to try and educate people. You have no idea how many calls and emails we get that look/sound like this...

"I have a [insert any car here, typically with about 150 hp stock], do you guys have anything that can give me MORE than 20 hp?"

And our response is always, no. And in fact, you aren't looking at 20 whp on that vehicle, you are probably looking at 10-12, depending on your operating conditions (elevation of driving environment, atmospheric pressure, relative humidity, air temperature, and the condition of your vehicle.

If you, or anyone else here, is trying to insinuate that we overstate our performance gains, that is simply not true. If you think you are going to put 30 hp in your car for $200, you should probably start taking the bus and forget the modding scene.

All the stuff you mention about closed loop AFR control does not apply to all cars. There are many ways to get over them too.

Perhaps not in India...but with emissions regulations in the United States, it does. In fact, many mods are considered illegal in many states because they alter the emissions of the vehicle.

With all due respect, going lower than 13:1 DOES NOT CAUSE KNOCK, BLACK EXHAUST or DROP POWER. Sir, have you ever even tried to tune an engine????

13:1 was not an exact figure...I know you get my point. It's probably somewhere closer to the lower 12's on a naturally aspirated vehicle, depending on the quality of the fuel you have available and the tuning of your particular vehicle. My point was, there is a limit to the amount of fuel you can combust, given the number of oxygen molecules you have to work with. Simple enough?

True regarding overrevving, it should not exceed engine limitations BUT again, its very car specific.

Agreed. Both our rev limit and speed limit override modules were discontinued 2+ years ago for liability. It's just not healthy for your motor, and unless your car is strictly for the track (or you have more money than you need), I wouldn't recommend doing it.

a) Almost all cars come OE with narrow band sensors that do not exceed 1000mv at roughly 0.9 to 0.8 lambda.

b) Agree

I still dont see any concrete justification of your product claims.
I don't see how you can say that? There are posts on this forum substantiating it, and we just debated, and pretty much agreed on the concepts behind them.

I have a proposition for you though...at all of our U.S. dealers, we issue a feedback booklet. It is currently 300+ pages of unsolicited emails from customers with great things to say about our products. 300 pages. Some have dyno results, track times, comparisons to other products they have used. I will ship you one of these books for your review (not a single thing has been edited, not even contact information, you can reference check any single printout you like). If you are not impressed, or you think someone sat down and fabricated a 300 page book, and got 300 people to play along and praise our products...discredit me, and Next Level on this website, and throw the book in the trash. However, if the opposite occurs and you find your skepticism was incorrect, you have to take a picture of yourself, holding a Tri-Phase, giving the "thumbs up" sign, and post it on this forum. I'll take your word that you are being honest either way.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 8th April 2007 at 09:38. Reason: Mods note: Please do not reply (full) in bold.
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Old 7th April 2007, 15:03   #42
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Originally Posted by rdkarthik View Post
@nextlevel350z
Pls note I do not have anything personal against anyone here..



I apologize if my reply was too blunt..
No personal offense taken at all man! I totally agree about myth busting and educating the enthusiast community!
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Old 7th April 2007, 15:06   #43
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Originally Posted by nextlevel350z View Post
Tough to say only knowing what the current power output of your motor is. Everything on our website is geared and directed at the North American market, the fact that we have vehicle models in both countries donning the same name doesn't necessarily mean the Indian spec vehicle. Most of our overseas advertising and sales are done through our authorized dealers, and does not appear on our website.
Same power outputs. The Hyundai Accent 1.5 and 1.6 motors also have the same outputs as the USDM ones. Only the Hondas differ by about 10 bhp or so.

Ok, so you're saying if it's the same power OP then the power increase would be the same? Or if the power is lower by 10%, the gains would also be 10% lower? Or am I not getting it right?
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Old 7th April 2007, 15:14   #44
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
Same power outputs. The Hyundai Accent 1.5 and 1.6 motors also have the same outputs as the USDM ones. Only the Hondas differ by about 10 bhp or so.

Ok, so you're saying if it's the same power OP then the power increase would be the same? Or if the power is lower by 10%, the gains would also be 10% lower? Or am I not getting it right?
Well if everything is the same, then of course the gains will be the same. I'm pretty sure the USDM accent is 94 hp. At least not the current model.
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Old 7th April 2007, 15:39   #45
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Originally Posted by ported_head View Post
Thats what I could make out from the excerpt given on the website:
3: Tri-Phase Performance Module

To quote:" In short, when the engine compartment heats up, some sensors that relay pertinent fuel curve contingent information to the ECU begin to lose accuracy due to heat absorption into the sensor. The ECU then reads these incorrect signals, and leans out, or otherwise incorrectly alters the fuel curve, which hampers performance. These errors cannot be corrected from within the computer, there must be an independant unit to correct these errors. The Tri-Phase is designed to automatically compensate for these signal errors."
But, you still haven't told us what all sensors it modifies the signal to ECM from!
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