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Old 7th April 2007, 16:29   #46
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A little OT, but since there was a debate between piggybacks and standalones here is a good read: Hondata vs VTEC controllers (VAFC) SAFC - Team Integra
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Old 7th April 2007, 22:46   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
JDM cars have a manifold and some other things which differ from the Indian cars. They come stock with 134 bhp.
so you are trying to say Indian stock vtec engine also makes 134 bhp which is same as JDM engine and should make the same %power gains when it is also bolted with the a header same as a JDM.
plz explain us in the context of the post #25 which I have posted again below


Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
ok..
lets go through each chart one by one ..and lets assume the Dyno is not manipulated for this..

1] (a)the 1st dyno chart is with a D16 engine which makes 130 BHP in its stock form with no mods none of our Indian Honda's are D16 and make 130 BHP in stock form.
(b) secondly the D16 on the Dyno is not stock, it is running bismoto cam and valvetrain,11:1 CR and RS head
(c) the fuel quality is much better in US and the ECU's are tuned for more power as compared to Indian ECUs

considering point (a) (b) and (c) if they make 6 WHP , it is feasible.
but is it feasible on a stock Indian Honda engine I dont think 10 WHP is possible..

2]
(a)The second dyno chart shows a D16 and to reiterate its more powerful in stock form than our Indian stock Honda
(b)To add to this, the D16 in consideration is not even stock it is a "Bisimoto hi compression prototype"

this "prototype hi compression D16" can make 10 WHP with those headers , but will a stock Indian Honda with normal compression also make 10 WHP is doubtful


3]
(a) The 3rd dyno chart is showing a D16Z6 which again in stock form already makes more power than our Indian Honda in stock form
(b) Its a 1600 cc engine tuned with ECU for octane in US
Its basically a bigger engine running better fuel and making more BHP so it will make more gains with a header as compared to the Indian 1500 cc engine with a ECU detuned for low octane/bad fuel making only 106 BHP ..

consider (a) and (b), do u think we can get 10 BHP with same race header bolted to our Indian Honda.. ?

I think all 3 dyno charts in the link are covererd.
guys what u think ? can we directly relate to those dyno readouts to ur stock Honda engines ? also dyno charts of same engine with JDM or USDM ECU cannot be same for our Indian ECU..

Last edited by chetanhanda : 7th April 2007 at 23:02.
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Old 7th April 2007, 23:12   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
so you are trying to say Indian stock vtec engine also makes 134 bhp which is same as JDM engine and should make the same %power gains when it is also bolted with the a header same as a JDM.
plz explain us in the context of the post #25 which I have posted again below
Chetan dude, all V1P3R is trying to say is that the Indian VTEC has a different intake manifold, runs lower compression, maybe different ECM mapping, maybe different exhaust (and maybe few other things but it's not like the Madman is coming to any rescue here) as compared to the JDM engine. The JDM D15B makes 130 hp stock, IDM makes 106 hp stock. Those exhaust system figures might be applicable to IDM D15B vtec if the differences are taken care of.
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Old 7th April 2007, 23:24   #49
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Originally Posted by nextlevel350z View Post
I have a proposition for you though...at all of our U.S. dealers, we issue a feedback booklet. It is currently 300+ pages of unsolicited emails from customers with great things to say about our products. 300 pages. Some have dyno results, track times, comparisons to other products they have used. I will ship you one of these books for your review (not a single thing has been edited, not even contact information, you can reference check any single printout you like). If you are not impressed, or you think someone sat down and fabricated a 300 page book, and got 300 people to play along and praise our products...discredit me, and Next Level on this website, and throw the book in the trash. However, if the opposite occurs and you find your skepticism was incorrect, you have to take a picture of yourself, holding a Tri-Phase, giving the "thumbs up" sign, and post it on this forum. I'll take your word that you are being honest either way.
Lol, thats very funny mate!!! holding up the tri-phase with a thumbs-ups!!!

Dude, you might have a million satisfied customers, i could'nt care less.... People will be happy gaining anything above above stock no doubt.... You could send me the book i would trash it anyway, and no, i dont think you are crook enough to fabricate the whole thing.

All i am contradicting is claims of 15% to 20% in torque and pick up... You say you have never read autocar and placed an ad, who do you think is responsible to supply them with that information for that article? Who do you think should be responsible for things concerning your product? Is'nt it weird you want to wash your hands off as "you have'nt read it"??

Btw these are the figures your Indian interest claims by word of mouth as well....


Quote:
if we quoted in percentage gains, we would have to quote something like 3% - 18%.....



Perfect!!! This is exactly, what i feel, you must do.. Members on the forum would really appreciate honest figures......


Quote:
It is true that reprogramming your ECU is going to give you the most flexibility, and like a slightly higher gain...you have a lot more to work with, but you also have a higher price (generally). You also have a mod that is permanent. You can't turn it off, and you can't unplug it.
Quote:
I think it's a great idea to try and educate people.
As regards educating the community, the points you did'nt get- piggybacks and standalones can have the price, can be something NOT permanent, can be turned off and can be unplugged.....


So we agree on the point-
Bhp gains with a temperature signal modifier can go from a negligible amount right up to 18%, depending on how good or bad the OE ECU was set up..
This was what the whole post was about.



Quote:
"I have a [insert any car here, typically with about 150 hp stock], do you guys have anything that can give me MORE than 20 hp?"

And our response is always, no. And in fact, you aren't looking at 20 whp on that vehicle, you are probably looking at 10-12, depending on your operating conditions (elevation of driving environment, atmospheric pressure, relative humidity, air temperature, and the condition of your vehicle.
Anyway, i do appreciate the way you educate your US customers on gains and related stuff ..



--------------------------


NOTE FROM MODERATOR - RDKartik, Please watch your tone when replying. Regardless of your opinion do reply in a respectful way.

Last edited by Rehaan : 8th April 2007 at 12:53. Reason: Warning
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Old 7th April 2007, 23:27   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ported_head View Post
Chetan dude, all V1P3R is trying to say is that the Indian VTEC has a different intake manifold, runs lower compression, maybe different ECM mapping, maybe different exhaust (and maybe few other things but it's not like the Madman is coming to any rescue here) as compared to the JDM engine. The JDM D15B makes 130 hp stock, IDM makes 106 hp stock. Those exhaust system figures might be applicable to IDM D15B vtec if the differences are taken care of.
but that is not the point, this thread is trying to explain why stock indian engines cannot be making x amt of bhp using boltons..

so post no#25 was in response to a post somewhere that there are dyno charts which can prove there can be x amt of gains with D series engines

thats why in my post #25 I have mentioned that dont expect these gains in a indian spec vtec, if all the dfferences are taken care of then why should we upgrade our stock engine and deviate from the thread ?

so that way if I upgrade my stock D16 with a "Jackson racing" bolton supercharger, upgrade my fuel and timing AEM EMS and then upgrade my header I will definately make a lot more .. but that is not the point.

Im saying dont look at the dynochart of those D16's becoz they are nowhere near to our indian spec stock Honda d15's , if the D16 in the dyno's make x amt of power we will make x-y amt of power taking in account the bad fuel, detuned ECU and not running cams or hi compression as the D16 in the dyno

now if someone now tries to prove if we can factor out the diff and upgrade our stock indian engines to be same as JDM then its not stock anymore and then that is creating confusion as we are trying to discuss something else here..
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Old 7th April 2007, 23:37   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post

so that way if I upgrade my stock D16 with a "Jackson racing" bolton supercharger, upgrade my fuel and timing AEM EMS and then upgrade my header I will definately make a lot more .. but that is not the point.
No you probably won't, because the header was designed for a NA setup.

I don't think the headers will give the same output upgrade as on the engines there because of the differences and Bisi's engine magic, but then again I posted the link since Ananth wanted to see some dyno charts of headers. Then again, how many mods do you see dyno charts of on the internet anyway.
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Old 7th April 2007, 23:43   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ported_head View Post
No you probably won't, because the header was designed for a NA setup.

I don't think the headers will give the same output upgrade as on the engines there because of the differences and Bisi's engine magic, but then again I posted the link since Ananth wanted to see some dyno charts of headers.
but dont u think im trying to say modded engine will make more mods
then a stock indian engine ?
that is the whole confusion..
if we are trying to say if we upgrade from stock to JDM spec to justify obtain that BHP then this is not the thread for that..
Im trying to say in post #25 is : take a stock bolton header and expect less as compared to what u see in the dyno as those engines are totally different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ported_head View Post
Then again, how many mods do you see dyno charts of on the internet anyway.
so then anyway why post that dynochart and discuss upgrading our stock engine to JDM spec in this thread ?
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Old 7th April 2007, 23:50   #53
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Originally Posted by rdkarthik View Post
Lol, thats very funny mate!!! holding up the tri-phase with a thumbs-ups!!!

Dude, you might have a million satisfied customers, i could'nt care less.... People will be happy gaining anything above above stock no doubt.... You could send me the book i would trash it anyway, and no, i dont think you are crook enough to fabricate the whole thing.

All i am contradicting is claims of 15% to 20% in torque and pick up... You say you have never read autocar and placed an ad, who do you think is responsible to supply them with that information for that article? Who do you think should be responsible for things concerning your product? Is'nt it weird you want to wash your hands off as "you have'nt read it"??

Btw these are the figures your Indian interest claims by word of mouth as well....





Perfect!!! This is exactly, what i feel, you must do.. Members on the forum would really appreciate honest figures......


The points you did'nt get- about your product having the "advantages" in comparision, of switching on and off on the move, installs, permanency and pricing is to indicate they are'nt that "uniquely advantageous", fyi standalones and piggybacks match them too... You raised these points, when my post was about performance gains..

So we agree on the point-
Bhp gains with a temperature signal modifier can go from a negligible amount right up to 18%, depending on how good or bad the OE ECU was set up..
This was what the whole post was about.





Anyway, i do appreciate the way you educate your US customers on gains and related stuff ..
I think we agree on most points, perhaps I misread your original post...I think some members are taking it as an attack on certain products. I think it's fairly safe to say, if you are going with basic bolt-on mods, intake, cat-back, headers, piggybacks, pulleys, plenums, etc., you are looking at a 5-15 whp gain range, with MOST vehicles narrowing into the 8-12 whp range...which is fairly significant (that is, for each mod).

Then other "simple bolt ons," such as plug wires, plugs, octane booster, grounding kits, may provide some benefits, but power gains will not be very significant (i.e. octane booster usually contains a detergent for your injectors, but most cars can't take advantage of high octane fuel without a good tune, and octane booster has little effect on your overall octane, since it mixes in linear fashion with the regular fuel in your tank; and grounding kits may provide a better overall ground to your vehicle, but whether or not it is necessary, or provides better lighting, better sterio sound, let along more horsepower, is another issue).

It should also be noted that some mods, say intake and a piggyback, or exhaust and a piggyback, may have a synergistic effect on each other, while other mods, are irrelevant to each others performance (say pulleys, and an intake). The is getting the whole system to work most efficiently.

Finally, if you are looking for some serious power for not a lot of money, you pretty much have two options: NOS (which I personally don't like, and think is very risky) or increasing the boost on a factory forced induction system.

For most people I think (working with a realistic budget, and using their vehicle as a daily driver), the best route is to start with getting the car to breathe, making a change to the ECU and corresponding a/f mix & timing, and (if available, and suitable), a quality set of underdrive pulleys.

If I missed a lot of posts, I apologize, this is a holiday weekend here in the USA. Have fun everyone, and stay safe!
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Old 8th April 2007, 00:01   #54
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Dude, Chetan, I'm losing you. What are you trying to say?
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Old 8th April 2007, 00:05   #55
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But, Boss, basic question remains unanswered! How does the Tri-Phase work? Man this is the third time I am asking the same question, and I am getting bored of myself now. Because I really can't make out anything of the description that is given on one of the tuner websites!
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Old 8th April 2007, 00:59   #56
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Originally Posted by ported_head View Post
But, Boss, basic question remains unanswered! How does the Tri-Phase work? Man this is the third time I am asking the same question, and I am getting bored of myself now. Because I really can't make out anything of the description that is given on one of the tuner websites!
To understand how Tri-phase works its important to know how a stock ECU is programmed, If you happen to see any fuel map you will notice that it is programmed to run at 14.7 A/F ratio aka Stoich in closed loop for throttle <50 % for low & midium load this will give maximum fuel economy which an indian consumer wants, when you use device like triphase it modifies the signals mainly Map,IAT which is going to ecu & ecu thinks of high load & throws in more fuel, so your part throttle which was for economy is now running rich as if at W.O.T, w.o.t is for power & maximum fuel enrichment hence you notice very good power only at part throttle since its running rich which can be around 13.1 AFR for N.A

Triphase will not be any benefit for throttle >50 % & at W.O.T
If you see their technical Notes of their product they will say its not compatible with NOS. Why ? because when when triphase is "ON" the ecu reads from different fuel/ignition columns the ignition timing will not be appropiate for NoS to work safe or else it can damage the engine.

Just my 2 Cents
& do correct me if i am wrong.
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Old 8th April 2007, 01:11   #57
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Ok, so it makes the ECU think that it's feeding in more air than it actually is, by making it see a lower temperature? So it's running constantly rich, so doesn't that drive up the combustion chamber temperatures? Also isn't the excessive unburnt HC harmful to the catalytic converter? Also, what keeps the ECU from learning the effect and negating the effect after a while?

Edit: Ok last bit sounded lame. What I meant is that since the ECM is running closed loop for part throttle, when the EGO sensor detects that there is less oxygen being passed out of the exhaust, wouldn't it compensate the next cycle for the injectors to supply less fuel?

Last edited by ported_head : 8th April 2007 at 01:43.
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Old 8th April 2007, 01:13   #58
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
Dude, Chetan, I'm losing you. What are you trying to say?
.. ok .
not saying anything new .. just read post #25 and then all your posts,my posts and ported_head's post..after #25
thats what Im saying

this is what u said
Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
JDM D15B engines, the same as our Indian Vtecs, with a different intake manifold and ECM, and some slight construction differences, put out 134 bhp.
this is what I said...
Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
ok, but I am mentioning stock in every sentence to stress the point that Im saying stock..
so if its stock then its = 106 BHP, if its modded as u have mentioned with ECM,intake and slight construction diff then its a diff story, gains will be more , no arguments at all...
so are on same page now ?
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Old 8th April 2007, 02:04   #59
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If its fooling the IAT sensor that one is looking at then there are cheaper tricks to it too .. And yes , way cheaper than Tri-Phase .. Has anyone opened the casing for the Tri-Phase and seen whats inside ?? That should give you an idea ..

PS : I dont have anything personal against this product .. Just want to know if it works on the same principal i think it does ..

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 8th April 2007 at 02:05.
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Old 8th April 2007, 02:08   #60
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Originally Posted by ported_head View Post
Ok, so it makes the ECU think that it's feeding in more air than it actually is, by making it see a lower temperature? So it's running constantly rich, so doesn't that drive up the combustion chamber temperatures? Also isn't the excessive unburnt HC harmful to the catalytic converter? Also, what keeps the ECU from learning the effect and negating the effect after a while?
Cannot say it can vary from engine to engine it wont be that high with a rich mixture but temp will be high with a leaner mixture the best way is to hook up EGT gauge & check for temperature readings.

Unfortunately there is no sensor to check condition of Catalytic converter otherwise it would throw an error code, latest generation engines has a sensor for catalytic converter as well.

the ecu only learns long term & short term fuel trim there are temperature compensation parameters but those are fixed in the map. done at manufacturing level, it can be altered by a remap or standalone.
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