Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st March 2013, 09:22   #121
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: @ Driver's Seat @
Posts: 679
Thanked: 56 Times
Default Re: Filled diesel in petrol car!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I thought the 'Beast' ran on Diesel, so the fuel names could have been reversed.
Confirmed here

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/featur...erd_limousine/

On additional Note : "one" of the limos in the president's entourage had broken down. Not the presidential limo, but one in his fleet
lambuhere1 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2013, 10:59   #122
BHPian
 
rajeshchand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 267
Thanked: 75 Times
Default Re: Filled petrol in a diesel car!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanyal779 View Post
Two days back my wife tells me an interesting story. She wnt to fill up our Ford Fiesta TDCi. At the petrol pump she became surrounded by a bunch of young sales boys & girls trying to sell her some car care kit items, when our careless driver went up to the attendant and started their usual chitchat. We fill up the car regularly in this pump and the attendant knows us and the car well. But due to unmindfulness he filled up 300 rs worth of petrol!! None of the two realized it untill the transfer was complete. Then the screaming and etc began and out came the manager. He confidently advised my wife that nothing much would go wrong anyway, just need to top up some more diesel over it. So they filledup another about 500 rs of diesel. Perhaps the tank was close to full, so they took no more diesel. Happily they drove back home, nothing exploded.
when I was told I was worried about engine damage, knocking and even an explosion. I took the car for a long drive to burn away as much of the mixed fuel.
To my surprize I found no abnormal behaviour from the engine. Makes me wonder if all our worries are true.
Quite surprising that since even the burning properties of both the fuel is completely different, that itself should have induced some vibrations and change in noise level from the engine.
rajeshchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2013, 12:21   #123
Senior - BHPian
 
alpha1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: P00NA
Posts: 1,599
Thanked: 926 Times
Default Re: Filled diesel in petrol car!!!

In a diesel engine the fuel is introduced in the third cycle - which is the power cycle.
The air inside has already been compressed and is hot.

As far as I recall, the diesel engine is capable of burning any type of fuel that can be atomized. Petrol definitely fits the bills.
When we can have CNG burnt in a Diesel engine - what harm could Petrol cause?

The only problem that I can see is because of reduced lubricity of petrol/CNG compared to Diesel. So slight damage in fuel pumping lines may be expected.
alpha1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2013, 12:27   #124
Senior - BHPian
 
lurker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tura
Posts: 1,242
Thanked: 505 Times
Default Re: Filled diesel in petrol car!!!

Diesel engine can burn petrol also but petrol engine cannot burn diesel.

Yet, there are many petrol autorickshaw drivers who fill in diesel and then top up their tanks with petrol. Supposedly in 50:40 ratio. It lowers life expectancy of the petrol engine, but nothing very serious happens in short term. Serious stuff happens only when the full tank of a petrol engine is filled with diesel and only diesel.

Last edited by lurker : 21st March 2013 at 12:29.
lurker is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2013, 12:39   #125
Senior - BHPian
 
joybhowmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,310
Thanked: 1,869 Times
Default Re: Filled petrol in a diesel car!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanyal779 View Post
He confidently advised my wife that nothing much would go wrong anyway, just need to top up some more diesel over it.

To my surprize I found no abnormal behaviour from the engine. Makes me wonder if all our worries are true.
Well you certainly seem to have got away with that temporarily.


However, I would excercise caution.This is because petrol in the mix, can end up dissolving the lubrication in your fuel pump, causing metal to metal grinding together, and production of fine metal particle shards. These shards could adversely affect the low and high-pressure fuel pumps, injectors, fuel rail, line filters and the fuel tank- which would then need replacement much before their natural life. Chances are that these particles would even now be damaging these parts internally, even though the offending mix has long been burned off. You will come to know, one fine day, when the fuel pump siezes up.

Evidently the manager at the fuel bunk appears ignorant on this topic else he would not have given the advise of topping up with diesel. He should have offered to get the fuel drained.
That mistake was compounded by your attempt to burn out the mix through a long drive- as it allowed more time for the lubricants in the fuel pump to dissolve out.

You/your wife ought to have had the fuel tank , diesel filter and lines drained immediately, filled system with at least 20 ltrs of clean diesel fuel, and then turned the ignition on.
joybhowmik is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2013, 14:31   #126
BHPian
 
Arch-Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Chn(Atrocity)
Posts: 551
Thanked: 275 Times
Post Re: Filled diesel in petrol car!!!

As alpha1 said, any fuel that can be atomized can be fed into a diesel engine. Petrol acts as a solvent on lubricant oil and thereby reduces lubrication on the cylinder walls and thereby, metal-metal interaction which can raise temperatures enough to weld the wall/piston etc.
Second thing to worry about is the compression ratio at which the engine runs. Petrol engines use slightly lower compression ratios compared to diesel engines because of the calorific value of the fuel used. If petrol is combusted at higher combustion ratio, it can lead to an excessive energy laden power stroke which can literally bend or skew the internals within.
That is the main reason why petrol in a diesel engine is "venkataramana govinda govinda". I might not be absolutely correct but i would love to hear other's opinion on this.
Arch-Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2013, 15:11   #127
Newbie
 
sameeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2
Thanked: Once
Default Re: Filled diesel in petrol car!!!

When Rudolph Diesel introduced his engine in 1900, at the World's Fair in Paris, it was running on peanut oil. Shortly after, the petroleum industry began cashing in on Dieselís design by using a byproduct of petroleum distillation to power the engine. They called it diesel fuel.


i dont know why now a days they have made engines so complicated


regards
sameer
sameeer is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2013, 17:20   #128
BHPian
 
dgupta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Coventry, UK
Posts: 69
Thanked: 64 Times
Default Re: Filled diesel in petrol car!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sameeer View Post

i dont know why now a days they have made engines so complicated
To provide a favourable answer to the question "Kitna deti hai"
dgupta is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2013, 19:57   #129
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,683
Thanked: 5,044 Times
Default Re: Filled petrol in a diesel car!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
Well you certainly seem to have got away with that temporarily.


However, I would excercise caution.This is because petrol in the mix, can end up dissolving the lubrication in your fuel pump, causing metal to metal grinding together, and production of fine metal particle shards. These shards could adversely affect the low and high-pressure fuel pumps, injectors, fuel rail, line filters and the fuel tank- which would then need replacement much before their natural life. Chances are that these particles would even now be damaging these parts internally, even though the offending mix has long been burned off. You will come to know, one fine day, when the fuel pump siezes up.

Evidently the manager at the fuel bunk appears ignorant on this topic else he would not have given the advise of topping up with diesel. He should have offered to get the fuel drained.
That mistake was compounded by your attempt to burn out the mix through a long drive- as it allowed more time for the lubricants in the fuel pump to dissolve out.

You/your wife ought to have had the fuel tank , diesel filter and lines drained immediately, filled system with at least 20 ltrs of clean diesel fuel, and then turned the ignition on.
I have a somewhat different few. Yes its all true what you describe in terms of what can happen. But as a rule of thumb, if your diesel engines starts fine and runs fine it will be fine. It's down to the mix of fuel/diesel and how long you run the engine on it.

I speak of experience unfortunately. For many, many years I always drove petrol cars, so when I changed to diesels I filled up with petrol several times over. A full tank of petrol on a diesel won't work. It won't even start and yes you have to drain the tank, flush the system. Its a real pain.

Several times I noticed after filling 5 - 10 litres, stopped and topped up with Diesel. never noticed any effects. I drove this car up to 180.000 km no problems whatsoever.

Jeroen
Jeroen is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2013, 01:23   #130
Senior - BHPian
 
joybhowmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,310
Thanked: 1,869 Times
Default Re: Filled petrol in a diesel car!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post

I speak of experience unfortunately.

Jeroen
With all due respect, that does fly in the face of accepted automobile engineering knowledge. Perhaps your experience was centered on a one-off (superior) build, or maybe the ambient operating conditions (temperature is an important factor) allowed the mistake to happen, and indeed be repeated without an adverse occurrence.

I can only pray that a similar fate does not befall the unfortunate person who recounted this incident.

I also speak from personal experience. My earlier European car's fuel pump (Fiat Palio 1.9D 2004) did indeed succumb to damages caused due to incorrect fueling here in India and there was only one instance of this mishap. And as I recall, I experienced trouble-free driving for 4 months after the incident - the only symptom was that the car would intermittently lose power while running, until one fine day when it permanently stalled.

What I also recall is that I had figured out the root cause of the incident by referring back to my automobile engineering text books which I studied during my graduation in IIT. And in fact that diagnosis was confirmed by my former classmate who heads the engine division in one of India's largest auto manufacturers today.

But like I said, maybe yours is a one-in-a-million case. I wish your fortune is contagious to others
joybhowmik is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2013, 18:06   #131
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Pune
Posts: 107
Thanked: 26 Times
Default Re: Filled diesel in petrol car!!!

All, when this mistake can be committed in the vehicle of POTUS, the most secure vehicle of President of the United States, then, anything can happen

http://metro.co.uk/2013/03/20/barack...under-3551481/

Last edited by rohit0103 : 22nd March 2013 at 18:08. Reason: Link added
rohit0103 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2013, 23:56   #132
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,683
Thanked: 5,044 Times
Default Re: Filled petrol in a diesel car!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
My earlier European car's fuel pump (Fiat Palio 1.9D 2004) did indeed succumb to damages caused due to incorrect fueling here in India and there was only one instance of this mishap. And as I recall, I experienced trouble-free driving for 4 months after the incident - the only symptom was that the car would intermittently lose power while running, until one fine day when it permanently stalled.

What I also recall is that I had figured out the root cause of the incident by referring back to my automobile engineering text books which I studied during my graduation in IIT. And in fact that diagnosis was confirmed by my former classmate who heads the engine division in one of India's largest auto manufacturers today.
how did you determine that the damage to the fuel pump was related to petrol and not some other cause? For instance fuel contamination other than fuel?

The scenario you describe sounds more like different problem than a petrol related problem. So I'd be interested to learn how you correlate your specific problem to petrol in the diesel.

So I'd really like to understand what measures and or observations were made to diagnose this as petrol related.

jeroen
Jeroen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2013, 00:04   #133
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: NH209
Posts: 1,605
Thanked: 685 Times
Default Re: Filled petrol in a diesel car!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
My earlier European car's fuel pump (Fiat Palio 1.9D 2004) did indeed succumb to damages caused due to incorrect fueling here in India
That Palio Diesel had an electronic fuel pump. It was a bit 'advanced' for India, because all IDI engines usually had mechanical pumps.

And even with 'water in fuel' sensor and a costly diesel filter, many Palio Ds had premature fuel pump failures. The engine is rock solid, though.

Sorry for going off-topic.
ramzsys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2013, 13:54   #134
Senior - BHPian
 
joybhowmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,310
Thanked: 1,869 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
So I'd be interested to learn how you correlate your specific problem to petrol in the diesel.
First off, perhaps you would agree that one cannot practically demonstrate experimentation by provisioning for a perfect 'control specimen' & an 'actual specimen' in case of car problems. That is because I had only that one diesel car at that time - and the instance of mis-fuelling was a one-off and unfortunate accident.

That being said, the reason I am reasonably sure is due to the following:
a) I am a trained mechanical engineer and do appreciate that solvents such as petrol can easily dissolve many oil based lubricants. I had also validated the cause of failure from my friend who heads the engine division at one of India's largest manufacturer.

b) My neighborhood buddy (childhood friend) and I each bought a Palio 1.9 D within a month of each other from the same dealer -Fiat's largest dealer in fact in NCR.

c) Both of us have for long favored a nearby bunk which is company owned and operated. We are both reasonably certain of the quality / quantity of fuel dispensed here. Our respective cars were fuelled here 90 percent of the time. We still go there as a matter of fact albeit I own a different car now.

d) Both of us got our cars serviced per the manufacturer recommended schedule at the same dealer (we bought from).

e) He has never had an instance of misfuelling. I had only the one instance.


Now while my buddy may have a different driving style and kilometres driven , other factors were as similar as possible ( practically speaking) - however to be absolutely sure one must carry out a rigorous scientific experiment.


But essentially this backdrop and circumstances confirmed the hypothesis that the cause of failure was likely the mis-fuelling.
joybhowmik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2013, 16:54   #135
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,683
Thanked: 5,044 Times
Default Re: Filled diesel in petrol car!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
First off, perhaps you would agree that one cannot practically demonstrate experimentation by provisioning for a perfect 'control specimen' & an 'actual specimen' in case of car problems.

But essentially this backdrop and circumstances confirmed the hypothesis that the cause of failure was likely the mis-fuelling.
Well, sometimes just inspecting the parts that broke, or in combination with inspecting other parts you can sometimes narrow down the cause. You don't need a control & actual specimen.

If a diesel pump breaks down, I would like to have it on a test bed see what still works and possibly take it apart to see what happened. I would always be very suspect of filters, so check them, don't just replace. Take them apart, cut them open and see what's in there. I would also check the injectors, test them and see if any damage occurred there.

At face value without knowing anything else, that's written in this thread I would say your fuel pump suffered from contaminated fuel (dirt, bacteria etc) or you had a rare, but it does, happen, early pump failure. Sometimes parts just fail long before they should.

From what I know about petrol in diesel is that engine failure in one form or the other is pretty instant. Or at least within the first couple of hundred of kilometers of it happening. Then, usually the tanks get refilled, petrol get further diluted as you add diesel. Of course, any damage that has occurred, will be there. I find it remarkable that you drove for more than four months with nothing happening.

So that's why I would think it might have been something very different.

Maybe I should have been a little more precise in earlier post. Adding petrol into diesel is tricky and can lead to catastrophic failures. In low dosages the damage is minimal or non-existent, or at least not of influence on the engine normal life expectancy.

I'm not so familiar with your Fiat, but I do believe the 2004 did not have any emission controls?

Diesel engines without emission controls are far more tolerant of petrol being added. Sometimes as much as up to 15-20% with little problem. With modern diesel with fancy emission control it is different. In most cases the part that gets destroyed are the various sensors in the exhaust and possible the kat. This happens fairly instantaneous. The good news is, relatively, speaking, the sensors by and large are a lot cheaper to replace than a fuel pump. The kat might be different, they're usually very expensive. And the sensors will be damaged long before there is any permanent damage to the pump, injectors or cilinders/piston rings.

Jeroen
Who doesn't have a friend who heads up an engine diesel division. But does have a lot of formal training, qualifications and hands on work experience in designing, building and operating diesel engines.
Jeroen is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A cars Shape is filled with emotions. maxbhp The International Automotive Scene 39 7th November 2010 06:28
petrol accidentally filled in diesel car archangel Technical Stuff 1 3rd September 2008 14:50
gas filled shock absorbers Ironmarine Technical Stuff 1 24th July 2006 13:38
Filled Diesel instead of petrol by mistake!? Neel Technical Stuff 18 21st June 2006 18:26


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 02:06.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks