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Old 13th October 2007, 10:36   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
Correct me if i'm wrong.
What the fan is essentially trying to do is usher in more air artificially. However, the amount of air required is proportional to the acceleration requirements and the speed the vehicle is moving at right?
Not quite. That 'fan' is NOT a fan at all in that it does not rotate. It is only a fixture to create a vortex in the air flowing past it. Which, in a way, means it is 'self regulating'.
By the same token, a supercharger is belt-driven from the engine so that it can vary boost pressure with rpm.
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Old 13th October 2007, 11:23   #47
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I see. Thanks for the explanation. I recollect Bajaj doing the Swirl Induction on their new DTS-si engine to make it better burn fuel. I guess this must be similar.
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Old 13th October 2007, 12:32   #48
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What BWN is talking about i beleive is a rotating fan ( which rotates due to the flow of air rushing through the intake). That would definately create a restriction wouldn't it? As far as for the vortex, what are the chances of the uniformity of the vortex to be carried on into the throttle body plenum and intake runners?
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Old 13th October 2007, 19:42   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
I see. Thanks for the explanation. I recollect Bajaj doing the Swirl Induction on their new DTS-si engine to make it better burn fuel. I guess this must be similar.
Guys, I dont know about the DTsi engine, but someone can fill in the blanks for me.
Is this engine Fuel injected and controlled by a proper ECU ?
Im trying to put an oversimplified view of the system to get everyone on the same page as me for this device.
In a regular MPFI system the air has to flow thru the components in this order : air filter ,throttlebody,intake plenum,runners ,intake valves ,cylinders.
The device is placed in between the air filter and the throttlebody, so by the time the time the air gets to the cylinder the effect of this vortex is cancelled out. Also plz remember the cars which we are talking about have MPFI not throttlebody or carburettors so the fule does not get injected till the air reaches the intake runner after the TB.

The actual use/benefit of this vortex generator maybe useful in TB injected or carb engines where the air and fuel mixture is given more time to mix by the vortex generated by the device before it reaches the cylinders
now considering this..do our MPFI sytems need this kind of setup ?
these are meant for carb or throttle body injcetion type of fuel supply systems where the air and fuel is mixed and better the mix in the TB the better he combustion.. BUT in our regular systems the fuel is added after the TB ie in the intake runner to each cylinder. There is one injector per runner supplying fuel spray to the cylinders.
so whats the point of this extra swirling of air in the intake plenum ? is it going to help us. ?it doesnt mix a thing except maybe the vapor coming through the EGR..

In our case due to the design of the intake i.e. Single TB connected to intake plenum feeding 1 runner for each cylinder
this TB is of no use becoz whatever the "claimed increase" of intake air velocity and swirling action does not reach the cylinder as it is already split up at the intake runners
vortex generators and spacers do work, but only if your car is carb'd or has throttle body injection.

Ok, if u dont agree with my thoughts, then also please consider why so many tuners and engine builders take so much pain to design the length and the diameter of the intake runner and get max velocity etc... and none of them uses these vortex generators

If one of the people who are using this device reply with some actual reasons how the "vortex" helps in our MPFI systems , I would appreciate that.
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Old 13th October 2007, 19:46   #50
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Chentanhanda - No, the DTSSi engine is not FI and has no ECU.
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Old 13th October 2007, 19:53   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
If one of the people who are using this device reply with some actual reasons how the "vortex" helps in our MPFI systems , I would appreciate that.
I don't think they are claiming that it is the voretx that helps.
See what I'd posted earlier:

Found this on googling. So what do these IR rays do? Search me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
"The unique materials of the Turbo Fan are capable of emitting far-infrared rays with wavelengths between 4µm – 14µm when thermo-activated (he activation)"
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Old 13th October 2007, 19:56   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
Correct me if i'm wrong.
What the fan is essentially trying to do is usher in more air artificially. However, the amount of air required is proportional to the acceleration requirements and the speed the vehicle is moving at right? This is why turbochargers' turbines spin faster as the speed climbs(of course powered by the faster flow of exhaust due to higher engine speeds) and helps pump in more air to better burn the fuel.
Actually we can call it this way : engine injects more fuel to burn the air that has been forced through it and not the other way around as u mentioned "pump in more air to burn the fuel"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
Super chargers also must work the same way only that they are powered by an electric source (alternator? batteries?)
Now this so called fan which i'm guessing is at best going to rotate at a static speed.
Nope, superchargers are driven by the power of the engine, they actually consume a % of the power generated by the engine.
Theone you are talking about are the fake ones which we usually classify as "joke" and put in the same category as the vortex generators

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
Now, if that is the case, then it should have its effect only at lower vehicle speeds(more in the city) when the spin of the fan can move more air than the natural aspiration of the engine.
Definitely the natural aspiration will overtake the air moved by the fan at some vehicle speed when the natural movement of air rams into the air duct in keeping with the engine requirements.
No , this doesn't happen, u need a turbo or a supercharger to do that.
the fan spins because of the air flowing thru the intake, take for example a table fan, if u switch it on it gives u air, if u switch it off and sit in front of it how much air does it give ? None...
similarly if u put this fan in a tube and blow air thru the tube the fan blades will start spinning, now at this stage how much is the fan contributing to the airflow ? its just spinning becoz the air is blowing across the blades, if u removed this fan u would get better air flow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
So, the fan in the middle would it not be counterproductive at higher vehicle speeds by obstructing natural airflow?
Does this sound right?
yes..


Also these people are claiming that it provides better combustion due to mixing of air and fuel, which again is not applicable to our MPFI systems as I mentioned inmy earlier post.
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Old 13th October 2007, 20:00   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
I don't think they are claiming that it is the voretx that helps.
See what I'd posted earlier:
read these posts 1st
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/593867-post40.html
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/593878-post41.html
they are also talking about this

and what are u talking about, read ur own post here
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/593881-post42.html

what are trying to do ?

Last edited by chetanhanda : 13th October 2007 at 20:05.
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Old 13th October 2007, 20:05   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSA View Post
Chentanhanda - No, the DTSSi engine is not FI and has no ECU.
Thanks Busa !!
that means the fuel is mixed with air and requires the turbulence etc etc and may possibly help since its a carb system.
But definately not in MPFI systems.
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Old 13th October 2007, 20:25   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
what are trying to do ?

Trying, as all of us are, to understand if there is merit to this system.
For example, I'm sure this is NOT a rotating fan. It is static, and therefore NOT a fan at all as we understand 'fan'. It is simply a 'swirl' creator.
The swirl or vortex would possibly help with carburetted cars, as you have said.
What I also realized, after googling, is that they are claiming some benefit because of 4-14uM far infrared rays. How this helps, I have no idea.
Hope I have made reasonably clear what I'm trying to do.
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Old 13th October 2007, 20:27   #56
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Regarding the infra red fan ..Im just posting it again as some people think we may not be talking about these...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
Amazing writeup , you have really taken a lot of trouble to test this so minutely.
The only reason the car can feel like this is if it is making more power or the power band has shifted slightly to lower rpm which makes you feel there is smoother/better pickup.
My question is how does a small fan in the intake do this ? definately it does not increase the flow of air instead it decreases the flow of air.. Its sitting in the intake clogging the flow of air...
So that means according to you : with decreased air flow the engine feels better, so the this fan is actually doing 2 things : compensating for this loss of air flow + doing something to the air which makes it even beter then the original setup.
That leaves us with 1 option - since the air flow is decreased the MAP/MAf sensor is going to indicate this accordingly to the ECU.
The ECU will lookup/calculate values corresponding to this load and you will be getting lesser fuel injected.
What does that give us now ? better performance or degraded performance ?
I just feel it is a scam..and posts like yours will only encourage other people to try it out.
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Old 13th October 2007, 20:31   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
Trying, as all of us are, to understand if there is merit to this system.
For example, I'm sure this is NOT a rotating fan. It is static, and therefore NOT a fan at all as we understand 'fan'. It is simply a 'swirl' creator.
The swirl or vortex would possibly help with carburetted cars, as you have said.
What I also realized, after googling, is that they are claiming some benefit because of 4-14uM far infrared rays. How this helps, I have no idea.
Hope I have made reasonably clear what I'm trying to do.
Yes dude..but then why did you tell me that we are not talking about vortex generators ? we are doing that also...
I think there are 2 things involved in this thread
1] vortex creator as someone mentioned in this thread (recently)
2] infra red fan (static) which was the original point of discussion
I was referring to both...
Im not convinced with the infra red fan also...I think it will be even more useless than the vortex thing..

Last edited by chetanhanda : 13th October 2007 at 20:32.
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Old 13th October 2007, 20:41   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
Im not convinced with the infra red fan also...I think it will be even more useless than the vortex thing..
Your approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
What I also realized, after googling, is that they are claiming some benefit because of 4-14uM far infrared rays. How this helps, I have no idea.
My approach.

That exactly is what we are trying to find out - whether far IR rays of the said wavelengths make some difference.
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Old 13th October 2007, 22:06   #59
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Curiosity killed the cat! i really want to see what this product looks like. any idea where i can get it in bombay. Ahem! not that i am the least bit convinced on its tall claims
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Old 13th October 2007, 22:10   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaizer Sozay View Post
Curiosity killed the cat! i really want to see what this product looks like.
Kaizer! There are photos on page 3 of this thread.
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