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Old 13th October 2007, 22:12   #61
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Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
Actually we can call it this way : engine injects more fuel to burn the air that has been forced through it and not the other way around as u mentioned "pump in more air to burn the fuel"
Is that what it is? I thought if you send in more air per cc of fuel, the chamber pressure will increase and the same fuel would cause a bigger bang? I see your point that once the sensors detect an increase in flow the ECU will supply more fuel? Is that how it is?

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Nope, superchargers are driven by the power of the engine, they actually consume a % of the power generated by the engine.
Theone you are talking about are the fake ones which we usually classify as "joke" and put in the same category as the vortex generators
The beginning of this thread is all about a Fan. Somewhere in the middle the vortex funda came up.

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No , this doesn't happen, u need a turbo or a supercharger to do that.
the fan spins because of the air flowing thru the intake, take for example a table fan, if u switch it on it gives u air, if u switch it off and sit in front of it how much air does it give ? None...
similarly if u put this fan in a tube and blow air thru the tube the fan blades will start spinning, now at this stage how much is the fan contributing to the airflow ? its just spinning becoz the air is blowing across the blades, if u removed this fan u would get better air flow.
In this i was referring to the ionic/infrared/quantum mechanic fan that is the origin of this thread again. Not superchargers if i install a battery operated fan which rotates at whatever speed and put it in the intake manifold ... my post was in this context.

Thanks very much for your very detailed answers.
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Old 14th October 2007, 03:00   #62
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Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
In this i was referring to the ionic/infrared/quantum mechanic fan that is the origin of this thread again. Not superchargers if i install a battery operated fan which rotates at whatever speed and put it in the intake manifold ... my post was in this context.

Thanks very much for your very detailed answers.
It would help if the fan was running at very high rpm. And fan rpm would have to increase with corresponding increase in engine rpm. Chetan inputs here..
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Old 14th October 2007, 03:01   #63
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Where the infrared comes from beats me.
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Old 14th October 2007, 07:00   #64
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Where the infrared comes from beats me.
The UNIQUE MATERIALS of the fan emit Far IR rays when 'thermo-activated'.
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Old 14th October 2007, 07:03   #65
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Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
Is that what it is? I thought if you send in more air per cc of fuel,
Let me try to put in a very basic way...
The more u floor the throttle ,more throttleplate alows the air to be sucked in, the ECu the uses the input from the MAP sensor to calculate the load the engine is under, it then figures out by help of preset fuel maps and feedback from other sensors how much fuel to inject, this amount of fuel injected keeps getting corrected by the ECU and it keeps learning and storing the parameters.
The more air u can get in the more fuel u will require.There comes a stage when u reach the limit and cannot make the engine burn more air and fuel - this is when it reached the limit of its "Volumetric efficiency".
At this stage u either increase the rpm, or increase the cc to get more air to flow thru the system... but again u hit the ceiling as every engine has a limit to how much u can increase the RPM and how much u can increase the CC, even the compression ratio,everything has a limit.
i.e RPM is limited due to the rod/stroke ratio of the engine : there is a point where the cylinder makes usable power above which if u increase the rpm you wont make any power. Now regarding the CC part there is a limit how much u can u do with a stroker kit or how much u can increase the bore.
Again at this stage when u run out of options .. now u have to force air into the cylinders with either turbo or supercharger, basically get more air into the cylinders and inject the fuel to burn it for max power.
Basically we are trying to inject fuel according to the air we can get into the system and we keep running out of ways to get in more air.
Look at the case of NOS dry/wet/direct port .. we are just trying to add more air ,it contains more o2 in the form of N2o for which we then inject more fuel, basically more air and accordingly more fuel.
In short its the other way round "inject more fuel according to air" instead of "send in more air per cc of fuel" as u were thinking..
This is just the tip of the iceberg there is hell lot involved, u can consider this description like a basic flow chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
the chamber pressure will increase and the same fuel would cause a bigger bang?
the fuel varies according to the air being sucked in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
I see your point that once the sensors detect an increase in flow the ECU will supply more fuel? Is that how it is?
yes sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
The beginning of this thread is all about a Fan. Somewhere in the middle the vortex funda came up.
right, and then vortex generators came up ...

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Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
In this i was referring to the ionic/infrared/quantum mechanic fan that is the origin of this thread again.
ok

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Originally Posted by Venkatesh.C View Post
Not superchargers if i install a battery operated fan which rotates at whatever speed and put it in the intake manifold ... my post was in this context.
ok
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Old 14th October 2007, 07:14   #66
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Originally Posted by rohan_fonseca View Post
It would help if the fan was running at very high rpm. And fan rpm would have to increase with corresponding increase in engine rpm. Chetan inputs here..
hey Rohan dude..
The rpm of the fan is driven by the amount of air flowing thru the intake system, the fan is just a passive obstruction in the intake system.
If more flows across the blades of this "nonsense" fan it will spin only faster like a windmill driven by the wind.
Energy cannot be made out of nowhere, if the fan is going to "Add" to the airflow it better be self driven and not driven by the existing air which is flowing theu the system. If its not driven by itself it needs to be driven the way the exhaust drives the turbo or the engine itself drives the supercharger, if its dependant on the existing airflow its just a obstruction, just a miniature windmill in the intake.

If its giving off infra red stuff and contributing to the better combustion etc its magic to me in polite words, or in more straightforward words F*****g c**p ..
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Old 14th October 2007, 07:29   #67
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Hey Guys,

I put up the pics of the vortex maker as it happens to be in the same category as the infra-red fan....the vortex thingy does 2 things:

1. It 'swirls' the air into a vortex (water going down a kitchen sink?) This results in less resistance at the 'inner core' of the air charge going into the cylinder....faster air movement. Also less resistance while inside the plenum & intake manifold.

2. Within the same volume of air i.e. static vs swirled, the latter will carry more molecules of air...which means more oxygen...more power.

when i bought my vortex generator....i was asked details about the model/engine capacity etc. this helped them in giving me a size which fits into the interface between the intake air piping & the throttle body.

They claim in my case a 5-7HP increase...my butt dyno also feels it...but cannot quantify...what i do feel is the smoothness of the engine & traffic speeds & increased top end at high speeds....eg. i used to really push pedal to metal before i got 190kmph....afterwards the effort was'nt as much. (all this with a K&N replacement filter)

Then the BIG jump came when i fitted the K&N performance filter....more air...more powerful vortex....BUT i cannot now quantify if & how much difference the vortex generator is making at this time.

If you keep an open mind & take a pinch of salt while reading all the tall claims...ie. follow the middle path....it DOES give benefits...that is all i have to say

This is the link to the site:

Vortec Cyclone - Save Gas, Boost Horsepower

Last edited by 1self : 14th October 2007 at 07:32.
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Old 14th October 2007, 08:20   #68
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If you keep an open mind ..
Holy cow! What is this new thingy? Will it shave 4 secs off my standing start quarter-mile? Where can I buy it and how much does it cost?!!
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Old 14th October 2007, 13:05   #69
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Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
hey Rohan dude..
The rpm of the fan is driven by the amount of air flowing thru the intake system, the fan is just a passive obstruction in the intake system.
If more flows across the blades of this "nonsense" fan it will spin only faster like a windmill driven by the wind.
Energy cannot be made out of nowhere, if the fan is going to "Add" to the airflow it better be self driven and not driven by the existing air which is flowing theu the system. If its not driven by itself it needs to be driven the way the exhaust drives the turbo or the engine itself drives the supercharger, if its dependant on the existing airflow its just a obstruction, just a miniature windmill in the intake.

If its giving off infra red stuff and contributing to the better combustion etc its magic to me in polite words, or in more straightforward words F*****g c**p ..
Well explained. Exactly what i had on my mind.
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Old 14th October 2007, 19:29   #70
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If it emits IR rays, wont it end up heating the intake air?? Why do we spend on cold air intakes if heating the air results in better performance?!
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Old 15th October 2007, 07:28   #71
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Originally Posted by 1self View Post
Hey Guys,

I put up the pics of the vortex maker as it happens to be in the same category as the infra-red fan....the vortex thingy does 2 things:

1. It 'swirls' the air into a vortex (water going down a kitchen sink?) This results in less resistance at the 'inner core' of the air charge going into the cylinder....faster air movement. Also less resistance while inside the plenum & intake manifold.
The "inner core" explains everything, I'm at peace.

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Originally Posted by 1self View Post
2. Within the same volume of air i.e. static vs swirled, the latter will carry more molecules of air...which means more oxygen...more power.

when i bought my vortex generator....i was asked details about the model/engine capacity etc. this helped them in giving me a size which fits into the interface between the intake air piping & the throttle body.

They claim in my case a 5-7HP increase...my butt dyno also feels it...but cannot quantify...what i do feel is the smoothness of the engine & traffic speeds & increased top end at high speeds....eg. i used to really push pedal to metal before i got 190kmph....afterwards the effort was'nt as much. (all this with a K&N replacement filter)
now you may be going more than 200+ right ?

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Originally Posted by 1self View Post
Then the BIG jump came when i fitted the K&N performance filter....more air...more powerful vortex....BUT i cannot now quantify if & how much difference the vortex generator is making at this time.
way to go dude , power for your engine..

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Originally Posted by 1self View Post
If you keep an open mind & take a pinch of salt while reading all the tall claims...ie. follow the middle path....it DOES give benefits...that is all i have to say
Dude the reason we are on TBHP is we dont take stuff with a pinch of salt, even after explaining so extensively also if you dont beleive it is a scam I have nothing more to say.

I can only offer you more stuff you may be interested in and highly recommended for you which may add a lot of power in the same way to the already powerful engine of yours, just keep bolting them on one by one..
1] Throttle body spacers
2] Upgraded plug wires for your stock car
3] another vortex generator for creating more vortex
4] An electric supercharger for pumping more air into your system

let us know your feedback on points 1 to 4 if you happen to try them out.
Please keep me posted and hope we can move this thread to the "Best threads section"
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Old 15th October 2007, 07:43   #72
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Originally Posted by chetanhanda View Post
the reason we are on TBHP is we dont take stuff with a pinch of salt, ...

Considering that even the most learned seem unable to explain the benefits of 4 to 14 um far IR rays, maybe it's time to say goodbye and relegate this 'magical' invention to the category of 'highly suspicious' add-ons! Complete absence of data.
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Old 15th October 2007, 07:58   #73
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Hey chetanhanda,

i can do without your 2 bit attitude! i was only trying to explain how the system works...wheather THAT is effective or not is entirely different....all i am saying is, & i repeat...there ARE benefits...ok?

How the device makers market their wares is quite a scam...i agree on that..& having tried it...i can say it is not all what it is made to be...but it is NOT completely useless either.

Also...the 'inner core' bit...read some wikipedia about fluid motion...that MIGHT give you SOME info.

Last edited by 1self : 15th October 2007 at 08:04.
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Old 15th October 2007, 08:02   #74
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the IR rays is a COMPLETE scam...even the 'vortex generator' is more 'genuine' than this....hahahaha
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Old 15th October 2007, 10:15   #75
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Hey guys, If it is not too expensive why dont you take your car and test it out on a dynamometer? It will put to rest all this subjective discussions.
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