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Old 4th June 2007, 23:06   #16
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Default Gurkha thanks a lot.

Dear Gurkha,
I have posted a link to the article in the Palio Users group where many are contemplating a swap.
I was always for stock air filter but had no concrete evidence to refute claims by alternate air filter users. Thanks once again. Bye and wear your seat belts.
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Old 4th June 2007, 23:09   #17
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Well I guess that depends on what the application is. Maybe K&N's perform poorly on large 6-cylinder diesel engines. K & N's have been in use in almost every race car engine. There's obviously an advantage. The case study here is a GM Isuzu diesel engine. I wish they did a similar study on any Honda sedan wonder what the results would be?
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Old 4th June 2007, 23:15   #18
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IF you remove your K&N filter and operate without any filter you will get best performance. But you will ruin your engine for good.
So what works for races may not work in a dust storm.
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Old 5th June 2007, 00:25   #19
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hasn't this been discussed before? somehow i don't want to believe that! i trust k&n, dont know how true that is!!
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Old 5th June 2007, 01:05   #20
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I once had a chance to drive a diesel amby with the air-filter from tata 407. There was no big difference in power. The so called increase in power is just psychological and also is the result of growl , thus giving a false impression of power.
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Old 5th June 2007, 07:27   #21
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drpullockaran, here are some more links to convince them not to use K&N.

Btw, not one single F-1 team, Indy team or any of the big name tuning houses like Mugen, HRC, TRD, AMG and Brabus use K&N, guess they don't know much about airflow

K&N bad experience - ShopForum
K&N damages MAP
K&N Filter Efficiency Tests - ShopForum
K&N efficiency.
K & N air filters vs. OEM? - ShopForum
K&N versus OEM.
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Old 5th June 2007, 09:52   #22
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Gurkha, as much as I appreciate the info provided by your links don't you think that the failure of the MAP sensor could be co-incidental? I mean it could have happened even with the stock filter. Or like some one else said over oiling will lead to this phenomenon. Meaning all types of oil filters can do this damage not necessarily K&N alone?

While most others just comment by the word of mouth, you do have scenes where many people who have been using K&N for the last xx years have reported no damage. I would trust them specially if they keep opening the engine up to check.

These days most reports are rigged. From personal experience of using a K&N and seeing many other friends who have used them I dont see any failures of MAP sensors or any other damages due to its inability to filter dust particles. And believe me we have opened our engines a couple of times to rectify someother problem. Like someone said "seeing is believing". I haven't seen any damage to my MAP sensor, intake manifold or the engine in the last two years of K&N usage. And my engine has been opened twice since then. But no damages found. Same story with my friends.

However, I do agree that K&N might not be the best at making air filters. Obvious enough there are plenty more companies out there making better filters but cost a bomb. The advantage with K&N is that they seem to do their work (well like v1p3r said we have seen them making a difference on track) and are affordable to our pockets.

Though, given a choice if I could afford I would switch to Green Cotton Filters or Uni. But wait, as these gain popularity I bet someone will come up with reports of them being useless too. Infact it would be better to run without an air filter at all, but engines dont seem to quite like dust. GGGRRR.
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Old 5th June 2007, 10:10   #23
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I've switched to K&N and the lower end grunt is perceptible, tho marginal, not just psychological. Given the poor response of the OHC 1.3 at lower revs otherwise, especially with the A/C or load, I can surely feel a diff in how the car behaves now. Of course, I also got new tyres, alloys, Castrol Magnatec after and engine flush and new spark plugs, so it could be one or more of those!

I'm still very worried about whatever keeps coming up about K&N's lack of filtering ability. In terms of efficiency, its 97ish% compared to 99% for other filters. Is 97% bad ? I have no clue... In lay terms and an apples to apples comparo wrt "restrictions" to the airflow - the paper filters do sound like they'll physically block more. But again, am not sure what impact the design of the filters has on air - its not straight vents (or whatever you call them) - we always try map "newer" tech to existing paradigms inadequtely, and well, that sounds logical too.

Poor me the consumer
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Old 5th June 2007, 10:29   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Gurkha, as much as I appreciate the info provided by your links don't you think that the failure of the MAP sensor could be co-incidental? I mean it could have happened even with the stock filter. Or like some one else said over oiling will lead to this phenomenon. Meaning all types of oil filters can do this damage not necessarily K&N alone?

While most others just comment by the word of mouth, you do have scenes where many people who have been using K&N for the last xx years have reported no damage. I would trust them specially if they keep opening the engine up to check.

These days most reports are rigged. From personal experience of using a K&N and seeing many other friends who have used them I dont see any failures of MAP sensors or any other damages due to its inability to filter dust particles. And believe me we have opened our engines a couple of times to rectify someother problem. Like someone said "seeing is believing". I haven't seen any damage to my MAP sensor, intake manifold or the engine in the last two years of K&N usage. And my engine has been opened twice since then. But no damages found. Same story with my friends.

However, I do agree that K&N might not be the best at making air filters. Obvious enough there are plenty more companies out there making better filters but cost a bomb. The advantage with K&N is that they seem to do their work (well like v1p3r said we have seen them making a difference on track) and are affordable to our pockets.

Though, given a choice if I could afford I would switch to Green Cotton Filters or Uni. But wait, as these gain popularity I bet someone will come up with reports of them being useless too. Infact it would be better to run without an air filter at all, but engines dont seem to quite like dust. GGGRRR.
You live in green Bangalore, actually entire south is green, when I drove there and lived there for a month, my air filter indicator would hardly show clogging, live in north and use K&N and you will see my point, if you go through the links at MB forum, many suffered MAP failures, the fact that factory racing and tuning houses of repute don't use K&N speaks for itself, when Renault, McLaren, HONDA, AMG or Brabus uses em, so will I. My FZR-750 carbs intake tracts would get dirty way faster using K&N, my mechanic there, who had extensive race experience was vehemently against them, only thing is I was a young fool who believed more in ads than facts. This report or the posts at MB forum are not rigged, unless you can prove otherwise. As I said, don't attack the report, read it and use K&N at your own peril.
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Old 5th June 2007, 10:37   #25
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I second Gurkha on the green part.
My indica spent 37000kms in Bangalore.
At 20,000 and 35000kms the intake manifold was cleaned and it was pretty okay. Infact in the 35000kms service I wonder why was it cleaned. It was clean.
Since I have come to noida, it needs cleaning every 10,000kms, and in once instance after a particularly dusty period had to clean it after 5000kms, and it was very very dirty.
This is the kind of dust gurkha is talking about.
I may be wrong here but most of these filters are imported and have not been tested in India like conditions. I remember on camera forums when we talk about dust, people from Europe say "What dust". This does not mean that we are wrong, or they are wrong, its just that the conditions are different.
A single run from Jaipur to chandigarh in May can completely choke your air filter, and thats just around 1000kms.
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Old 5th June 2007, 10:49   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkha
the fact that factory racing and tuning houses of repute don't use K&N speaks for itself, when Renault, McLaren, HONDA, AMG or Brabus uses em, so will I
Like I said, there are companies making better filters. But K&N seems to be the cheaper of the lot. I for one cant afford a TRD muffler at 8k when my local fabricator can do it for 1k. 2k if you want it to your specs. SImilarly a HKS filter a friend of mine bought cost him 12k and there is no way I can afford that. In the end people's choice is based on VFM. I hope you agree to that.

Quote:
You live in green Bangalore, actually entire south is green, when I drove there and lived there for a month
Should I consider myself lucky that the risk might have just paid out?

Quote:
My FZR-750 carbs intake tracts would get dirty way faster using K&N, my mechanic there, who had extensive race experience was vehemently against them
Now that is some personal experience I would tend to believe. However, did you check out the difference yourself just to make sure?

Quote:
This report or the posts at MB forum are not rigged, unless you can prove otherwise.
From what I could read, one man posted saying his MAP sensor went kaput, another saying the dyno didn't show any gains. And the rest 100 were just shouting what a PITA it was to put a K&N without having had issues with it or tested on a dyno. Like someone else pointed out, putting in more air into that particular Merc engine wouldn't throw up much gain as they are already at their limits. Unless you overbore them. Seems a fair enough an argument.

How come there is no mention of TRD, HKS, Pipercross or Green Cotton. Why is K&N alone being targetted here? I am not trying to support anyone here but these are the questions one is bound to ask.

Like sameer said, how much of a difference will it make from 97% to 99% efficiency? Enough to destroy an engine? Wonder what efficiency my stock air filter on the baleno would give?
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Old 5th June 2007, 11:05   #27
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TRD, HKS are offshoots of factory racing teams, their research is far more superior to K&N any day, anytime, futile to compare them, they also reflect that in their pricing and are for serious track competition only,they are track proved stuff, not seat of pants or vague dyno claims. MB forums and many other forums ban on using K&N, if you find them of good value then its fine, not many of us would like to let in more air to damage our engines. The links I posted all conclude in the end that K&N air filter is not worth destroying expensive MB engines, and this forum is from the land where K&N is made.

About living in greener Bangalore, yep, you are indeed lucky as not to face daily onslaught of Rajasthan desert dust that we get up here in the NCR region.

On the FZR, I put the original air filters back and my intake tracts got significantly cleaner. I also actually gained power, Yamaha was the first company to introduce fresh air intake through fairing for street bikes, by taking stock air box off, I negated Yamaha's system and the K&N would draw in hot air blowing past the radiator and engine. Also this same phenomenon happens when you put bolt on K&N inside your engine compartment in cars, unless there is a shroud or an air box, a bolt on will just plainly suck hot engine air circulating inside the engine compartment, we all know hot air will lead to power loss than gain. My HRC kit for RC-45 didn't include any K&N, just a regular air filter with a bigger less restrictive air box.

Last edited by Gurkha : 5th June 2007 at 11:06.
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Old 5th June 2007, 11:15   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
My FZR-750 carbs intake tracts would get dirty way faster using K&N, my mechanic there, who had extensive race experience was vehemently against them, only thing is I was a young fool who believed more in ads than facts.
My mech in Dubai also DOES NOT recommend using a K&N on my bike. He says stick to stock - even though the bike does cry out for more air. Wait for a performance filter from Yamaha is what he says.

So I guess there's an amount of truth in the saying that all this talk about > BHP is not for real.
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Old 5th June 2007, 11:19   #29
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Foam! That's the solution!
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Old 5th June 2007, 11:26   #30
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Foam is good, Uni-Flo is a old name and its extremely popular in dirt circuits in US.
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