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Old 30th May 2007, 20:11   #121
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Originally Posted by Ricky_63 View Post
you may be surprised - but Hyundai did give my friend a brand new car as the dealer had totalled the car ............it is a long story - but yes they did give a NEW car that too without going to court.
Wow, I am more thrilled than surprised! Good luck, Sam - keep the faith!
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Old 31st May 2007, 12:13   #122
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good to hear the buggers are doing something about it....

And for the bugs in codeanalogy, no offense, but that was completely out of place
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Old 31st May 2007, 13:24   #123
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... And for the bugs in codeanalogy, no offense, but that was completely out of place
I don't really think so, abhi182.

Without taking anything away from Sam for the mental torture, agony, distress & other trauma that he's gone through, the analogy seems close to perfect - maybe even inadequate.

Bug free code doesn't exist. At least not for complex programs. It generally consists of lots of smaller programs & processes running together &/or resulting in more sub-processes, etc. Much like a car in a much simpler way.

Take the modern internal combustion petrol engine for example. The correct fuel with the correct octane rating has to be fed to a fuel pump supplying the correct pressure through the correct fuel lines. Once there, it has to correctly mix with the available quantity of oxygen in a combustion chamber at the correct millisecond & ignite on the correct pulse of the spark plug. Which then has to drive the piston on it's downward stroke, synchronize with the rest of the cylinders' firing order, so on, & so forth.

Given all these parameters in only the engine that can go wrong, it's a wonder that it even works to start with.

Then you add the other things that can go bonk in the dead of night. All your subsystems, such as the transmission & the drivetrain, front & rear suspension, steering electricals, body/chassis construction, interior fitments, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Chuck in more fancy stuff like drive-by-wire, ABS, EBD, ESP, SRS, all the attendant sensors, on-board computers, coffee grinders, massage seats, a three-ring circuses & you're just waiting for Murphy to come along & give you a healthy shot in them gonads.

Now you multiply that by the typical hundreds of thousands of vehicles of that model sold globally, their varying drivers & driving conditions, & suddenly, even 500 cars of that particular model having failed axles doesn't seem that much.

Yet, automakers have been consistently delivering vehicles which start when freezing, run in adverse conditions & brake efficiently on even oil, ice & plastic.

Now compare that with software issues. Not to detract from the great work that they're doing, but even a global software giant such as Microsoft releases entire operating systems with known bugs & then releases software patches as stop-gap fixes. And their customer support doesn't really exist.

Look at Hyundai's response. One guy wrote one e-Mail & was responded to almost immediately, & they've undertaken to fix the problem - which was a freak incident & has arisen on one car sold by one dealer in one city. They didn't need to give a $hit, & could've simply fixed it quietly at the workshop like they did & ignored Sam's e-Mail.

Methinks them coders could learn a thing or two from them automobile engineering chappies.
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Old 31st May 2007, 14:49   #124
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Has any manufacturer in India exchanged a car without the courts doing their bit? We dont even have recalls here for any modifications!
Yup, yours truly was given a brand-new C220 in exchange of an extremely problematic two year old C180. Obviously this was not their first choice, but I gave them a hard 45 day fight.
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Old 31st May 2007, 15:06   #125
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Yup, yours truly was given a brand-new C220 in exchange of an extremely problematic two year old C180. Obviously this was not their first choice, but I gave them a hard 45 day fight.
WOW thats amazing. how the hell did you manage that?
whats the strategy? how can others who have serious problems with manufacturer's achieve this monumental task?
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Old 31st May 2007, 15:17   #126
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@GTO

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/owning...ctive-car.html (ARTICLE: What to do if you are stuck with a lemon (Defective car))

So, is this how it was achieved? Well done.
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Old 31st May 2007, 15:26   #127
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Wow I did not know such thing was possible in this country. I always thought you had to sell the old car at market value and pay the difference for the new car. Truly unbelievable feat!

Sam you must follow GTO's course of action and make Hyundai give you a brand new car in exchange for your old one! Hurray for team-bhp!
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Old 31st May 2007, 15:58   #128
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... how can others who have serious problems with manufacturer's achieve this monumental task?
Search the forum, Revv, search the forum.

'Tis a veritable Oracle at Delphi, this one. The font of knowledge of all things automobile related.

And no you moron coders, I'm not talking about the back end, which I believe is SQL running PHP or whatever.
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Old 31st May 2007, 16:06   #129
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I don't agree with the code analogy. There is software in a automobile but its simple. Not many conditions (ifs elses etc.,). Moreover, you cant compare a part bolted on to another part to some complex software. If you have designed the parts well and inspect that you have bolted the thing, I dont think it would fail.
So mostly its a workmanship and quality control issue.
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Old 31st May 2007, 17:39   #130
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Absolutely! Everything I learnt with that incident has been outlined in the above-mentioned article.
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Old 31st May 2007, 21:33   #131
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Yup, yours truly was given a brand-new C220 in exchange of an extremely problematic two year old C180. Obviously this was not their first choice, but I gave them a hard 45 day fight.
No offense , but I somehow don't believe this ... and that too only with a 45 day fight -- , mercedes sure gives up without a fight -- I remember another member who was fighting it out with Tata Motors for months if not years .

As for Sams Verna .... seems everyone has allready said what one can say -- !!!

Cheers
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Old 31st May 2007, 21:47   #132
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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
I don't agree with the code analogy. There is software in a automobile but its simple. Not many conditions (ifs elses etc.,). Moreover, you cant compare a part bolted on to another part to some complex software. If you have designed the parts well and inspect that you have bolted the thing, I dont think it would fail.
So mostly its a workmanship and quality control issue.
Not to pick any bones here, but you must be from the softer side of the fence. I've been on both and am qualified to comment. There are many many many many more things that can go wrong with a mechanical sub-system. Most of the time, when you assemble something, and it works, you walk away feeling that it is a miracle. As a matter of fact, if you read everything there is to read about a diesel engine or a ram jet or a differential, or for that matter about the wiper system on a merc, you'd still be perfectly justified in believing that all this is a machinations of an alien being.

The "If you have designed the parts well and inspect that you have bolted the thing, I dont think it would fail" comment, is an simplistic dismissal of some very difficult engineering.
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Old 31st May 2007, 22:43   #133
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Originally Posted by wizardofid View Post
Not to pick any bones here, but you must be from the softer side of the fence. I've been on both and am qualified to comment. There are many many many many more things that can go wrong with a mechanical sub-system. Most of the time, when you assemble something, and it works, you walk away feeling that it is a miracle. As a matter of fact, if you read everything there is to read about a diesel engine or a ram jet or a differential, or for that matter about the wiper system on a merc, you'd still be perfectly justified in believing that all this is a machinations of an alien being.

The "If you have designed the parts well and inspect that you have bolted the thing, I dont think it would fail" comment, is an simplistic dismissal of some very difficult engineering.
I was refraining from commenting on this till now. Moreover it is OT here... nonetheless now I gotta speak I guess.

In a mechanical system, no matter how complex, you can test every part and sub system. It may take time, the designs may need multiple validations. Everything is accepted. But once all these have been thoroughly tested and benchmarked and the thing goes into mass production the only way something fails (except for wear and tear or accident) is due to bad workmanship or quality check failures. If not so you would have never been able to build things to 99.99% perfection (the lofty 6-sigma goal).

Now let me tell you the basic tenet of software engineering. For every branching, decision loop the various possible pathways goes up exponentially. If there are just 5 different pathways that can be taken to complete one iteration of a program and it is executed 20 times the number of possible unique paths will be 5^20+5^19+...+5^2+5=100 trillion. Go figure. It is a fact that no program in the world can ever be certified as hundred percent bug free.

So you see? It is very easy to jump on the software guys and say they can not produce a bug free software but the fact is they can not. Nobody can. Anyone who tells you so is talking through his hat. Ask him to go and brush up his SE. Companies release patch as and when a particular problem in an elusive iteration/path is caught and then software engineers isolate the area where it occurs and the conditions are understood.

It is nothing like manufacturing buddy. In software world there in NO foolproof design, unlike the manufacturing world.
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Old 1st June 2007, 13:08   #134
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No offense , but I somehow don't believe this ... and that too only with a 45 day fight -- , mercedes sure gives up without a fight -- I remember another member who was fighting it out with Tata Motors for months if not years .
None taken. Some of the bombay BHPians got regular updates, as did most of the moderator team. You can check with them, or give me a call whenever you are in Bombay. I would be more than happy to show you the paperwork.

And no, they didnt give up without a fight.
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Old 1st June 2007, 13:42   #135
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None taken. Some of the bombay BHPians got regular updates, as did most of the moderator team. You can check with them, or give me a call whenever you are in Bombay. I would be more than happy to show you the paperwork.

And no, they didnt give up without a fight.
Fair enough! 45 days of not-matter-how-hard-a-fight, was so freakin worth it! I am remembering the song "There aint no mountain high enough"..

Hey, did you treat T-BHP folks?
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