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Old 14th June 2007, 18:54   #16
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Thumbs up Pure Off roading vs. practical motoring !

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Originally Posted by lohithrao View Post
@Torque: anyways sorry for that.
Can Scorpio/Safari/CRV do this kind of offroading? i dont know since i havent tried.
Gee,...Thats what I didn't want to do,..offend anyone. I absolutely know you meant well . Thanks for the advice. Real cool pics.
Do forward any links where I can get more info on the jeep scene.

I guess what you meant when you mentioned about the Scorp, & safari being "lengthier" was that a short wheel base with minimal overhangs allows a steeper angle during approach and decent & I absolutely agree that when it comes to pure off roading (Not necessaryly practical motoring) the jeeps do come up trumps.
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Old 14th June 2007, 19:05   #17
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These are some of the major changes you will see, when moving from a sedan to an SUV:

1. Lower level of handling / body roll : The higher center of gravity inherently demands slower speeds around the corner. Watch out for massive body roll on some SUVs. An SUV is nowhere as fun to corner as a competent sedan.

2. Size and weight! The additional weight can work against acceleration, fuel efficiency and braking effectiveness. But the good side is : People will make way for you on the road. Nothing quite like giving pesty rickshaws a hard time.

3. High speed : Compromised handling / braking / body roll requires caution while speeding over the ton.

4. Ride quality : Some SUVs (especially the Ford Endeavour) ride horribly. The Safari is an exception since it has the best ride quality this side of 10 lacs.

Driving an SUV has its pros and cons. But hey! Everyone has their own drug. Decide whats best for you. SUVs have an advantage in extra space, 5+ seating ability, better visibility (higher stance), macho feel, rugged build and ability to take bad roads. You will never slow down for bad patches on the highway.
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Old 14th June 2007, 19:08   #18
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Originally Posted by Torque-ative View Post
Considering that it doesn't really have ABS.
I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "doesn't REALLY HAVE...." - its the VX version that has ABS & from my personal experience, its worked for me so far. Not that I've gone out & tested it repeatedly but whenever I've had an emergency stop situation its worked.
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Old 14th June 2007, 19:14   #19
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Originally Posted by jkdas View Post
Heard that the new Safari gonna be 2500cc instead of 2.2!
please specify your Source ??
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Old 14th June 2007, 19:16   #20
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Arrow GTO !!???? Alright

[quote=GTO;468679]3. High speed : Compromised handling / braking / body roll requires caution while speeding over the ton.

GTO, its a good to hear from one of the biggies,..honored !!
Queer queation, Why is it called speeding over the ton when the ton is actually a 1000.

You will never slow down for bad patches on the highway.[/quote)

Trust me where I drive you will slow down for bad patches cos they are the size of crators. Try the back roads of Jim corbett tiger reserve.

Cheers Big Guy !!
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Old 14th June 2007, 19:32   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lohithrao View Post
SUV's like Scorpio, Safari, CRV have low ground clearnece, which makes offroading diificult. also they are lengthier.
Erm, you're grouping the Safari with the CRV?!

As far as handling goes, the Safari and the Endeavour are the best of the lot. With a 'Psyched' suspension, the Safari handles as close to a car as can be. It's not too bad otherwise too, but the way it wallows around tight fast corners is unnerving. Spending some money on aftermarket tyres helps hugely.

Stay away from the Scorpio unless you are short, or plan to drive only in town, or better still, are short and plan to drive only in town. It's just too dangerous on the highway, and I've seen more than one topple at absurdly low speeds. The only redeeming factor is the engine, though the Safari's Dicor engine is no slouch in itself.
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Old 14th June 2007, 20:30   #22
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It is not an issue of Scorpio bashing. I own both a Safari 4x4 of 1998 vintage and Scorpio GLx of 2004. Have done a lot of touring in the Safari including a trip to Lonavala/Khandala via Bombay in June 2006.

Safari is an out and out highway machine with excellent road hugging properties while providing comfortable driving conditions. I have reached speeds upto 130 Kmph but generally would advice sticking to 100 Kmph. If this is your first time then brakes certainly would be an issue till you get used to the feel and the pedal pressure. I've really not done tight corners at speed would not be able to comment.

On hills this mean machine has behaved very well climbing up steep climbs on 2nd gear with full load (8 people) and full AC. If it is any comfort then the hills done were Dhanolti, Lal Tibba, Kasauli, Bhuwali etc. Also several trips to Sariska, Rajaji National Park etc. have been handled very well without getting bogged down while crossing rivulets & streams. It will do well to keep in mind that the powerplant in my Safari is 2.0 Ltr TCIC engine. The present DICOR is a3.0 ltr engine and more peppy and silent.

Now coming to Scorpio although it is very peppy and shoots out of signals as if its tail is on fire, it tends to roll. Brakes are an issue but is a great chomper of miles. Not as comfy as a Safari but the feel is very light.

Hope this clears some cob-webs from your mind. I have not dwelled on the FE part coz if you drive a SUV then don't bother about FE.

Now I shall come to the maintainance part. I've had no major issues worth mentioning. My both vehicles get serviced at 5000K and that's it. Due to some bad experience once, I don't go to authorised service stations. I've been lucky to find a good guy here who maintains my vehicles..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque-ative View Post
Dude,..This thread is not about Scorpio bashing. It is sincierly about learning to handle the power, and get a hand off driving an SUV rather well.

What does it take to get a few genuine answers !!
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Old 14th June 2007, 21:16   #23
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Originally Posted by Torque-ative View Post
Having owned and regularly driven only petrol cars for the last 10 yrs, what should one keep in mind while transitioning to a typically top heavy diesel SUV. This question stems from the post about the toppled over Lotus re-engineered Scorpio. I have driven SUV's such as the Gypsy King, Safari, & the Pajero albiet only breifly ! Definetly not enough to explore all the strenghths and weaknesses.

I am sure Team-bhpians owning SUVs for longer periods could contribute greatly towards the safety of hoards others, who like me are considering a shift from a nimble small car (Hatch/Sedan) to a big SUV for reasons of space and the need to ride over roads that are really really tough on a conventional car. (Both due to GC and 4x4 prowess).
First of all as far as I know there is no evidence that the Lotus-engineered suspension was to blame for that particular incident of a Scorpio toppling. The Scorpio in question hit a Tata 407 truck, probably at high speed and may have veered off the road and hit barriers/stones etc. Any vehicle can topple under those conditions. However the Scorpio is known to be prone to toppling at high speed as pointed out by others.

A transition from a "nimble small car" to an SUV may require a drastic change in driving style, at least for drivers like me (I have never driven an SUV). In addition to the points made by GTO, note that you simply do not have the kind of road space on our roads to throw an SUV around as you would a small car. E.g. if you are on a relatively narrow, curving road, you could push a small car to 80-90 kmph by keeping left around the corners. If a loaded lorry comes at you from the middle (or even middle-right) of the road around a blind corner, a small car could squeeze through and keep moving at speed. With an SUV, you would have to slow down a lot more due to lack of road space. While autos will quickly move out of your way, don't expect that from lorries and buses.

Most of the SUVs that I see observe lane discipline, and for good reasons of the kind that GTO mentioned. Of course I have also seen some lunatic drivers who came chasing after my Santro in their Scorpios/Prados with crazy lane-cutting in thick traffic. While a small car can cut lanes at speed with impunity, it is not at all advisable to drive an SUV in that style. Sooner or later you will come to grief. And it is a good idea to have both side-view mirrors in addition to the RVM, and maybe also a reverse mirror fitted (of the kind I have seen in some Innovas).
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Old 15th June 2007, 00:56   #24
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As many have mentioned, you need to have a different mindset when driving an SUV, as compared to a car. Many tend to get carried away by the sheer road presence and the "lording over the lowly cars" feeling that u get in an SUV.
An example of this are some of the Sumo & Scorpio drivers (no offence to anyone) that drive like maniacs both in the city and on highways. Their feeling of invincibility is unfortunately shattered along with their vehicles (and sometimes their co-passengers). I've seen more wrecked Sumos than any other vehicle. Granted, its an MUV, not an SUV... but the concept is the same - big is powerful and invincible. It is not.
And again, as mentioned by some, you need to adjust to the bulkiness of the SUV in crowded city conditions. Be prepared to break a sweat everytime you have to park in a crowded area, and some wily parking attendants even charge extra for "big cars"!
A Scorpio/Safari should not be compared with a CRV, for example. I have driven all of these, and I know for a fact that while a CRV is ultra-stable and composed at high speeds and through corners... its poorer cousins are not.
I hope that helped somewhat!
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Old 15th June 2007, 02:20   #25
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Want to transition to SUV from a car? Very simple, just hop in and drive. You don't need to learn anything if all you want to do is drive around city. Your instincts and common sense will teach your how to adjust to the heavier vehicle with high CG.
On a serious note though, keep the following in mind:
Speed: Drive it like a car or even faster as long as your are driving in a straight line. In case of collission, SUV is a lot safer due to its high ground clearance and bigger size.
Handling: Usually turn at 60% of the top speed you take your car through that favourite corner of yours. 60% if a rough number from my experience... if its a curve, I go at higher speeds, almost same as car. If it is a right or left turn, I usually do it at 50% of the car speed. Also, no sudden manoveurs like you do with your car to evade an accident. Use brakes instead. Do not cut across other vehicles - either you will crash or the other person will.
Urban driving: Know the size of your car. Rear visibility is not the best because of the height, always watch out when you are backing up.... kids and cyclists may come from no where and you wont be able to see them if they are short.
Off-roading: Drive slow and in lower gears.

Pretty basic stuff and you might know this already, but would be useful for SUV n00bs.

Last edited by Mayavi : 15th June 2007 at 02:24.
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Old 15th June 2007, 02:28   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayavi View Post
In case of collission, SUV is a lot safer due to its high ground clearance and bigger size
Erm, and then you topple or crash into a non-yielding structure and die. Because unlike a car, a traditional SUV does not have a monocoque frame. It has a body on chassis arrangement, and the roof, pillars etc are a lot weaker than they are on a car. Besides, SUVs are a lot less stable, and thus prone to the toppling that will then kill you.
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Old 15th June 2007, 02:30   #27
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Originally Posted by rks View Post
First of all as far as I know there is no evidence that the Lotus-engineered suspension was to blame for that particular incident of a Scorpio toppling. The Scorpio in question hit a Tata 407 truck...
I don't know which incident either of you are referring to, but I've seen a Lotus-sprung Scorpio with 5 (very stupid) people in it topple onto its side at under 50 kmph. Stupid, as in not wearing seatbelts. Also shows you the mindset Mahindra tests their vehicles with.
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Old 15th June 2007, 02:33   #28
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Well, the qualifier should have been 'In case of a collision with a car when driving within speed limits'. Given that we don't have too many safety features in our vehicles, at low speed impacts SUV's are safer.
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Old 15th June 2007, 02:34   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torque-ative View Post
Points that could contribute towards safety could be (but not limited to)
1) Safe max Highway speeds in India for an SUV.
2) Speeds for safer cornering.
3) Making switch-backs maneuver, (whether possible in an SUV).
4) Handling Bridging Ramps at certain freeway bridges.(read sudden elevation and decline, a car would normally get a few inches air borne).
5) Max angle of horizontal tilt while negotiating a hill ( Angle beyond which the SUV could loose traction or topple sideways).
6) Are heavier SUV's (2tons & above) really capable off roading (Or only comfy cruisers).
1. 120 kmph comfortably. Upto 160 recently, but you're pushing your luck unless you're acclimatized to the vehicle.

2. Depends on the corner really. Better tyres do help a lot.

3. Comfortably.

4. I've been airborne a couple of times and have landed decenly enough.

5. Dont know. Never toppled.

6. Yes, they are.
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Old 15th June 2007, 10:04   #30
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Wow,..this is quite a revelation !! These were things I knew theoratically but having it ratified by a knowledgable bunch such as you guys was priceless !! Probably saved me a lot of future heart burn (& I mean that literally).

I know for sure I need to get used to the engine not revving as much. The need to keep the pot on the boil as far as the torque band is concerned (This one left me frustated in a friends TCIC 4x4 Safari on the open road, cos on top gear at 50-60 the speeds would continue to drop even if I maintained the same pressure on the throttle peddle). What was I doing wrong ? A car should cruise at 50-60 kmph at 5th gear right, or does the safari gear box only cruise on 5th above say 70-80 kmph.
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