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Old 25th June 2007, 17:49   #1
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Default NHC - AC Regrigerant Gas and Refrigerant oil recharge

Hi,

Yet another issue with Deccan Honda...

During my last service, I was finding things while inspecting the car before delivery and to make me happy, the service engneer washed my car with a very high pressure water hose (in the dent and paint department). He washed the condenser fins also (in spite of me shouting on him "Don't..." as I somehow spotted that the water pressure was too high...)...and guess what, it made "holes" into the condeser. Fins completely detroyed wherever the hose was pointed!

First, the guy started telling me it's a non-issue,vfins are not that important, then tried to tell me the condenser was damaged even before I gave the car for servicing. I insisted that he caused it so he directed the hose onto a nearby car's condenser to prove that the water pressure did not cause it...and to his disappintment, created holes in that too! (it's really horrible to see these guys play around all the cars parked with them for service...)

When I theretened to escalate how it happened to his superiors, he immediately made a few phone calls, blaming the dent and paint guys for keeping an unusually high water pressure (claiming the service guys never used that pump!)...

Then with a lot of arguments, hassles (and mostly due to my good relations with the body shop in-charge), they told me they will replace my condenser with a new one. I was asked to wait.

Knowing how they function, i kept walking to the car to ensure they really do it and do it fast...(all that is another story worth a report. They made a few calls within the service center to see if there is any car that's going to be there for long, may be for a accident repair, etc, from which they can take out the condenser and give it to me! When I intervened, they reluctantly gave me a new one...).


Finally, they hooked it to the AC refrigerant Gas recharging station and discharged the gas (I think), replaced the new condenser and filled recharged the gas. Again the guy doing it did it so reluctantly that he tried to force the new unit into the position without removing a couple of nuts on the front grill thereby damaging the fins on the new condenser ata couple of places....Now I screamed...so the "engineer" came in, removed the nuts and did it the way it was supposed to be done....

They demoed to me that all is well and the cabin is cooling nicely, so I went off happily.

Today, I was desparately searching for NHC service manual and I found one that comes close:

http://www.hondafitjazz.com/manual.htm

As I read the A/C condenser relacement section, here is what Honda says:



A/C Condenser Replacement

1.[COLOR=#800080]Recover the refrigerant with a recovery/recycling/charging station.[/COLOR]


2.[COLOR=#800080]Remove the front bumper.[/COLOR]



3.Remove the bolts, then disconnect the discharge line (A) and the receiver line (B) from the condenser. Plug or cap the lines immediately after disconnecting them to avoid moisture and dust contamination.

FIL(1,gESM.iDT[0],gESM.iDT[0].Width);

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']A[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']B[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']6 x 1.0 mm
9.8 N·m (1.0 kgf·m, 7.2 lbf·ft)
[/FONT]





4.Remove the compressor clutch connector (A) from the condenser fan shroud, and disconnect the condenser fan connector (B). Remove the mounting bolts and the upper brackets (C), then remove the condenser (D) by lifting it up. Be careful not to damage the condenser fins when removing the condenser.

FIL(2,gESM.iDT[1],gESM.iDT[1].Width);

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']6 x 1.0 mm
9.8 N·m (1.0 kgf·m, 7.2 lbf·ft)
[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']C[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']D[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']A[/FONT][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']B[/FONT]




5.Install the condenser in the reverse order of removal, and note these items.
  • If you're installing a new condenser, [COLOR=#800080]add refrigerant oil (KEIHIN SP-10).[/COLOR]
  • Replace the O-rings with new ones at each fitting, and apply a thin coat of refrigerant oil before installing them. Be sure to use the right O-rings for HFC-134a (R-134a) to avoid leakage.
  • Immediately after using the oil, reinstall the cap on the container, and seal it to avoid moisture absorption.
  • Do not spill the refrigerant oil on the vehicle; it may damage the paint; if the refrigerant oil contacts the paint, wash it off immediately.
  • Be careful not to damage the condenser fins when installing the condenser.

A/C Refrigerant Oil Replacement


Recommended PAG oil: KEIHIN SP-10:
  • P/N 38897-P13-003: 120 mL (4 fl·oz, 4.2 Imp·oz)
  • P/N 38898-P13-003: 250 mL (8 1/3 fl·oz, 8.8 Imp·oz)
  • P/N 38899-P13-A01: 40 mL (1 1/3 fl·oz, 1.4 Imp·oz)
Add the recommended refrigerant oil in the amount listed if you replace any of the following parts.

  • To avoid contamination, do not return the oil to the container once dispensed, and never mix it with other refrigerant oils.
  • Immediately after using the oil, reinstall the cap on the container, and seal it to avoid moisture absorption.
  • Do not spill the refrigerant oil on the vehicle; it may damage the paint; if it gets on the paint, wash it off immediately.

Condenser . 25 mL (5/6 fl·oz, 0.9 lmp·oz) Evaporator . 35 mL (1 1/6 fl·oz, 1.2 lmp·oz) Line or hose . 10 mL (1/3 fl·oz, 0.4 lmp·oz) Leakage repair . 25 mL (5/6 fl·oz, 0.9 lmp·oz) Compressor . For compressor replacement, subtract the volume of oil drained from the removed compressor from 85 mL (2 5/6 fl·oz, 3.0 lmp·oz), and drain the calculated volume of oil from the new compressor: 85 mL ( 2 5/6 fl·oz, 3.0 lmp·oz) - Volume of removed compressor = Volume to drain from new compressor.

NOTE: Even if no oil is drained from the removed compressor, don't drain more than 50 mL (1 2/3 fl·oz, 1.8 lmp·oz) from the new compressor.


Now I am sure they did not add those 25ml of refrigerant oil when they replaced my condenser.

I am really pissed of now.
WHat should I do?
Will this be a real problem? It's been 2500 KM after the incident and AC is running fine. I hope there is no silent damage beng caused to the compressor due to this neglegence by Deccan Honda.

Please advice.

Last edited by anandpadhye : 25th June 2007 at 17:55.
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Old 26th June 2007, 09:46   #2
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Hi,
It seems my post was long and nobody read it.

Auto A/C experts, are you reading?

Can you answer my query?

In short:
1. If the condenser is replaced, should they add refrigerant oil before recharging the gas or not?

2. Are there AC gas recovery and refill machines that add refrigerant oil along with the gas?

3. Or, is the gas in the recovery machines premixed with the refrigerant oil?

4. Does anyone know what Honda A.S.S. does in this case? What do they use?

Note: The refrigerant gas in case of NHC is R134a, so the refrigerant oil has to be some kind of PAG.

Please reply.

Thanks,
ANand
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Old 26th June 2007, 12:09   #3
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hey Anand, seems deccan has added another sorry issue on your books

infact, IMO, you should have escalated the issue with the management (Bafna's)....its high time they are treating their customers as if they are servicing some low-budget chinese two-wheelers

....the fact still remains that deccan is unable to handle the load and they try to complete the job in a jiffy....

ok now regarding your issue, the best place to get answers to your query would be to call up Honda One2One Customer on 1800 11 3121 or 011-39898918.....also inform them about all your experiences with deccan....

unfortunately for us, we do not've any other dealer in Pune....
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Old 26th June 2007, 12:34   #4
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the 25 ml oil should not make much of difference as there is about 200 ml oil in the system.

as long as there is no leak and the cooling is a near to perfect on a comparative experience before / after the new condenser its fine
BUT i dont know how a Honda Ac system is - as based on my Nissan if you change the condenser you have to also change the "dryer" and once all isntalled all moisture is to be removed and then recharge gas so that the internals dont rust.

Last edited by 2fast4u : 26th June 2007 at 12:36.
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Old 26th June 2007, 13:03   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zakaaaaasss View Post
unfortunately for us, we do not've any other dealer in Pune....
Hi Anand and Nimish, this is another perfect example of Honda monopoly for service in Pune. I have had good experiences with taking test drives there and their courteous staff but I know a service advisor there who told me the face off story of service there. It was a great move by Anand to yell and get things done the way he wanted and it was an absolutely perfect approach. There is another Honda dealership coming up soon and it is being handled by my favourite service station in Pune - B.U. Bhandari. The workshop will be located very close to Pashankar G.M. Service on Pune bypass close to Pashan.
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Old 26th June 2007, 13:05   #6
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The oil in the condenser is for lubricating the AC system.
Usually, its mixed (somehow) with the gas while recharging the system.
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Old 26th June 2007, 14:01   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moralfibre View Post
There is another Honda dealership coming up soon and it is being handled by my favourite service station in Pune - B.U. Bhandari. The workshop will be located very close to Pashankar G.M. Service on Pune bypass close to Pashan.
thats a great news kiran.... did'nt knew it was bhandari's who are getting Honda dealership (i know they've it for Honda two wheelrs)...i'm related to them distantly so now it seems 'goodbye deccan' in near future
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Old 26th June 2007, 14:37   #8
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Yes Nimish, like I said it will indeed be very close to the IT park in Hinjewadi so you should be good to go.
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Old 26th June 2007, 15:03   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fast4u View Post
the 25 ml oil should not make much of difference as there is about 200 ml oil in the system.

as long as there is no leak and the cooling is a near to perfect on a comparative experience before / after the new condenser its fine
BUT i dont know how a Honda Ac system is - as based on my Nissan if you change the condenser you have to also change the "dryer" and once all isntalled all moisture is to be removed and then recharge gas so that the internals dont rust.
hmm...so regarding the qty of oil, I may have had a lucky escape.
At least the Honda Fit manual I read (and referred to for this) did not say anything about the dryer.
BTW, Where is the dryer located?
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Old 26th June 2007, 15:25   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
The oil in the condenser is for lubricating the AC system.
Usually, its mixed (somehow) with the gas while recharging the system.
OK.
So even if no condenser is removed, when they simply recharge the AC gas, do you mean they suck the old gas and oil and recharge with new gas and oil?

I remember, I saw they completed discharged the gas, did some vaccum test and then recharged (no mention of oil recharge anywhere....).

I also read somewhere on T-BHP that they should ideally be invoicing us the net amount of gas recharged (amount of gas recharged - amount of gas discharged). Is this true?

At Deccan Honda they chrge you flat 2700 for AC recharge! Ridiculous...


Moralfiber,

Thanks for info and for supporting the way I tried to handle it.
Please tell me one thing - is B.U.Bhandari a good dealer/service center?
Would you recommend going to them in the future?
Can you "introduce" me to them so they service my car honestly (if you know anyone there personally)?

Nimish,

I though of escalating to Honda, but if you look at the order of event as they happened, good part of my mind was concentrating on getting a free of cost replacement and the fact that the in-charge of the paint shop ordered the service guys finally to give me a replacement, I had to be careful that the escalation did not go against him. Only against the guys who actually caused the condenser damage.
Also, about the refrigerant oil recharge, I had no idea that this was required until yesterday when i read the workshop manual. Now the incident is more than 2 months old...still, I may still report it to Honda, all I want to ensure that the paint-shop in-charge is not implicated, as he told me that he was arranging the replacement without approval from the service manager and will later on fight it out withn themselves.
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Old 26th June 2007, 15:47   #11
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aaha u did not mention the vaccum test and recharge. As ur system is new only gas discharge to replace condenser and recharge is sufficient. hope the vaccum test lasted atleast 5 minutes with no drop in pressure. as a precaustion when fixing condenser or any other parts dryer is normally changed to avoid moisture in system and also system flush (disconnected from compressor) to get any debris during fix out as any debris can eventually meet with compressor and screw the bearings and that would stop the clutch.

a good ac tech will know when there is oil needed in system on compressor sound.

the dryer is in front of condensor.

Last edited by 2fast4u : 26th June 2007 at 15:51.
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Old 26th June 2007, 16:00   #12
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Hey, this is getting interesting.
Can you provide me a bit more info about what you are saying...

What do you mean by "As ur system is new only gas discharge to replace condenser and recharge is sufficient." ?

Why is that so?
Even if new, the AC system will need lubrication oil and when the condenser is taken out, some oil that remained in the condenser will be lost. Isn't it?

Regarding the vaccum test, i think it lasted for 5 minutes.

But what's the importance of minimum 5 minutes?
And no drop in pressure means what?
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Old 27th June 2007, 12:05   #13
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hey anand i checked with a Ac tech guy (bahrain) and he mentioned that ur system needs the Oil top up after the new condenser. My apology (assuming based on my system) that it would not require the topup.

The vaccum test is required for a minimum 5 minutes so as to check for any loss in pressure after the new install done. Loss in pressure indicates leak.

an oil top up means u have to get the gas out - top up oil and recharge.
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