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-   -   Removing a Catalytic Converter (Cat Con) - Do you guys think its worth it? (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/technical-stuff/25975-removing-catalytic-converter-cat-con-do-you-guys-think-its-worth.html)

ananthkamath 5th July 2007 01:28

Removing a Catalytic Converter (Cat Con) - Do you guys think its worth it?
 
A recent post by some guy on another board made me think - Are we doing the right thing by advocating removal of the cat on our cars in exchange for the supposed HP gain?

Some things we need to think about before removing the cat -

1) Do we need to remove it in the first place? What gains are APPARENT & MEASURABLE from this?

2) Is there any published data on the gains from removing a cat either on our Indian engines, or from similar engines abroad?

3) What is the impact on the environment?

Why not do some research and form a conclusion before senselessly contributing to slaughtering the environment more than necessary?

Mpower 5th July 2007 17:49

I think every car will respond differently to this. Some will show a lot of gain and others negligible..but generally it will improve top end power.

Late model cars which are designed for LEV and ULEV emissions have a catalyst that is stuck into the manifold that prevents any kind of header installation. Thats another problem.

Another thing to worry about is what is the ECU going to do when it detects a missing cat. Might need a remap for that.

n_aditya 5th July 2007 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mpower (Post 490636)
Another thing to worry about is what is the ECU going to do when it detects a missing cat. Might need a remap for that.

Wouldnt the ECU "remap" itself as it is a self learning thingy? If the battery is disconnected and reconnected after few mins the ECU gets reset and would "learn" the new inputs. Wouldnt this work at least to some extent?

mail4ajo 5th July 2007 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_aditya (Post 490668)
Wouldnt the ECU "remap" itself

ECU cannot remap itself. But it will learn the new values and work based on the map loaded.
But we are not fiddling with any sensor, right? So will there be any difference in the values at all??

AUTO_CRAZY 5th July 2007 21:14

I think considering the damage to the environment........it is strongly recommended not to remove the CAT CON.

veyron1 5th July 2007 22:29

1) Removal of cat-con is unnecessary unless the car is being tuned for serious performance gains (Upwards of 30%). Even more unnecessary if CC of engine is below 2000.

2) For anything below, cat-backs should suffice; the muffler & expansion chamber (pre-exhaust) reduces the EG velocity by a greater margin than the cat-con itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mpower
Another thing to worry about is what is the ECU going to do when it detects a missing cat.

Most ECM's won't detect the cat-con; lambda sensor's at the exhaust manifold, na...there aren't separate sensors for cat-cons in most cars...at least not the non-expensive ones...

theMAG 5th July 2007 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ananthkamath (Post 489841)
..
3) What is the impact on the environment?

Why not do some research and form a conclusion before senselessly contributing to slaughtering the environment more than necessary?

I hear you man. I'm all for healing the environment while still making our lives exciting. Thats a very difficult choice curently.

mail4ajo 5th July 2007 23:34

I was just wondering if removing the CAT will give more pickup while driving on LPG. I wont be damaging the environment a lot since LPG creates minimal pollution.....:)

veyron1 6th July 2007 00:25

LPG, hm...now there's a thought...why not have a dedicated high-compression engine for LPG? We could do away with cat-con altogether...

We have Diesels. We have petrols. Why not consider LPG as an alternate fuel..? Could make for some really interesting powertrain designs...and even more interesting specs...

devilvtec 6th July 2007 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by veyron1 (Post 491039)
LPG, hm...now there's a thought...why not have a dedicated high-compression engine for LPG? We could do away with cat-con altogether...

We have Diesels. We have petrols. Why not consider LPG as an alternate fuel..? Could make for some really interesting powertrain designs...and even more interesting specs...

thats an interesting topicagree: but do you think that india has the resources and technical saport for designing and developing a new engine for only LPG ..?? LPG is also a kind of non renuable energy source .. which in turn cannot make it a alternate fuel .. if we actualy care for mother earth we should try and develope a solar or hydrogen car that can be as easy to use and run as a internal combustion engine ..

ananthkamath 6th July 2007 03:43

LPG and other alternate fuels aside, the point I'm trying to make is that there are lot of guys out there who think "Hey, that cat con is robbing me of 15 hp, so lets remove that, I dont care about the environment anyway".

I dont think that's the right approach. But we dont have any figures to prove that. Has anyone come across data which shows the flow losses across the cat? At any rate I doubt its above 2 psi of loss which means a miniscule amount of power on a "street tune" engine.

Now if you're planning to improve the torque of your engine significantly through a turbo or NOS, the answer is clear. Get a high-flow cat. Or ditch it if you're racing. Stock engines are already flow-challenged on the exhaust side so when you do these mods its imperative you improve on that end.

But what about stock and street-modified engines? Post away, guys......

PS: My access to the SAE paper database is down for some reason but I'll try and come up with something when its up.

ananthkamath 6th July 2007 04:04

I found this through google:

http://www.fluent.us/direct/dieselnet-listing/ex185.pdf

You can see in Fig. 3 that the velocity loss through the cat is negligible, and the contours prove that the velocity in the headers is the same as that in the cat. But the pressure loss is considerable as in Fig. 4. Is this enough to hurt flow and thus power? We dont know yet.

anandpadhye 6th July 2007 06:14

Ananth,
I second you.
We should not harm the environment.
In fact we should help our RTOs to gear up and nail down such modded vehicles on Indian roads. Pune and Bangalore have had enogh of air pollution already.
And automakes are spending so much on Euro 4 and 5 requirements and the consumers are being passed on some part of that cost...the so called car enthusiasts that moodify the exhaust for "audible power" should be heavily penalised.

Hellcat 6th July 2007 13:17

I have one question for all you guys who have removed you Catalytic Converter. What about emissions standards? How do you manage to get you emission certificate?

Hellcat

tsk1979 6th July 2007 13:20

Unleaded Petrol when burnt without a CAT gives out Benzene apart from N oxides and other undesired stuff.
Benzene is highly carcinogenic.


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