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Old 29th July 2007, 01:45   #31
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IMO When I try to brake medium hard and also downshift too much there is quite a bit of weight transfer towards the front of the vehicle (I mean comeon we all drive FWD cars)

This weight transfer then causes the rear end to move to a side and the rear end feels loose.

By modulating the braking and easing up on the Brake lever when there is a bit of wheel locking I feel I am able to control a hard stop better.

This also avoids the driver error of downshifting too much and straining the engine. I once downshifted to 2nd however realized I was too fast, good thing I did not release the clutch.

I have a habit of going from (@100) 5th to 3rd and most of the time (@ about 60) 5th to 2nd, depending on the situation.

Going through all the gears during a quick braking does not make any sense to me.

not like we have paddle gears sans a clutch nor are they like a bikes gears where quick downshifting and engine braking on every gear is possible. (Love doing that on the Yam)

Again in my IMO. Train yourself to modulate the braking....
1) Engine Braking is good however our H gearboxes are not built for it.
2) whats the point of engine braking if you have already panicked, slammed your right foot into the brake pump and locked the wheels.
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Old 29th July 2007, 02:14   #32
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For taking care of the panicky situations. One needs to prepareupfront when there is no panic. That is start "practising". On an open strech of road, pickup speed and then observe the different reactions to braking from different speeds. Try to identufy the wheel lock up symptoms. In India, unfortunately, this isn't a part of the initial driving training. But sometimes playing around with the car actually passes information to the brain, which the brain uses at the time of emergency without even thinking twice.

I am not sure why heel-toeing is even being discussed here. Heel toeing is not for stopping. Its for reve matching after a need to have downshifted. These needs could be a corner ahead having an exit speed lower than the optimum rpm in the present gear or an obstacle or a block causing to loose momentum for an instance. So heel toeing is to ensure a perfect exit (i.e eventually the intent is to accelerate and go). Most importantly, completely irrelevant in these situations where braking to a stop is being discussed. Any prod on the accelerator in these situations could have a negative effect of engine braking.

Last edited by 1100D : 29th July 2007 at 02:23.
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Old 29th July 2007, 12:57   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronWolf View Post
whats the point of engine braking if you have already panicked, slammed your right foot into the brake pump and locked the wheels.
I think that's the point a few of us are trying to make here. With some practice you can train yourself not to stand on the brakes anytime you need to stop suddenly. You can combine braking with a quick downshift and releasing of the clutch. How much of brake you use is dependent on you, your car (brakes, tyres etc) and your personal driving style. I don't think there is any cardinal rule in this case... do what comes instinctively.
Having said all that, the method stated above holds true if and only if you have at least a couple of seconds in hand. When the reaction time is a fraction of a second (for example if a kid runs out in right front of your car from behind a bush), I think that most, if not all of us will use the brakes. There won't be enough time to perform a downshift...

1. Moving right foot to brake from accelerator and stomping/pumping hard

vs

2. Right foot from acc to press brake + left leg to depress clutch + left hand to gear lever + downshift + release clutch

IMHO, option 1 would win if we're talking fractions of a second.
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Old 29th July 2007, 21:43   #34
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Originally Posted by razor4077 View Post
Having said all that, the method stated above holds true if and only if you have at least a couple of seconds in hand. When the reaction time is a fraction of a second (for example if a kid runs out in right front of your car from behind a bush), I think that most, if not all of us will use the brakes. There won't be enough time to perform a downshift...

1. Moving right foot to brake from accelerator and stomping/pumping hard

vs

2. Right foot from acc to press brake + left leg to depress clutch + left hand to gear lever + downshift + release clutch

IMHO, option 1 would win if we're talking fractions of a second.
This is precisely what I have tried to communicate in my post earlier, for which I was offered advice by the experts. I hate getting into an argument and so left it at that.
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Old 29th July 2007, 22:12   #35
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All the posts are useful in giving different perspectives. I agree that most of us try only brakes during panic situations, but other side of argument says that if you "practise", downshifting gear along with braking is possible (unconscious competence).

So, my take from all posts is this way: move slowly from 'only braking' into 'braking with downshifting' habit - let me practise it.

Thanks to all for response!! This is very good discussion, I always give improtance to safety.

Now, another question: I have ABS, so I shouldn't pump the brake at anytime, I always should keep it pressed letting ABS do pumping (as per manual).

So, what is best way for me during panic and known obstacles situation?
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Old 29th July 2007, 22:42   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
I am not sure why heel-toeing is even being discussed here. Heel toeing is not for stopping. Its for reve matching after a need to have downshifted. These needs could be a corner ahead having an exit speed lower than the optimum rpm in the present gear or an obstacle or a block causing to loose momentum for an instance. So heel toeing is to ensure a perfect exit (i.e eventually the intent is to accelerate and go). Most importantly, completely irrelevant in these situations where braking to a stop is being discussed. Any prod on the accelerator in these situations could have a negative effect of engine braking.
even downshifting is not for stopping AFAIK. And downshifting without rev matching is ensuring extra wear and tear for the tranny. one should have enough faith on the brakes and know how to apply boosted brakes so that they dont lock up. If one cannot do that then he/she should remove the booster and drive so that there will be no lock up in case of panic braking also. What I dont understand is how can people ask others to downshift at 100 from 3rd to 2nd gear and not match the revs, the result will be that the trany will match the revs and shoot the rpms from say 4000 to 5000 and the car will buck and hurt the tranny and engine mountings. but surely the car will stop at a shorter distance. But I dont think that will help it in the long run. And I dont think that people who love to maintain their cars will love that too.
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Old 30th July 2007, 00:02   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
even downshifting is not for stopping AFAIK. And downshifting without rev matching is ensuring extra wear and tear for the tranny. one should have enough faith on the brakes and know how to apply boosted brakes so that they dont lock up. If one cannot do that then he/she should remove the booster and drive so that there will be no lock up in case of panic braking also. What I dont understand is how can people ask others to downshift at 100 from 3rd to 2nd gear and not match the revs, the result will be that the trany will match the revs and shoot the rpms from say 4000 to 5000 and the car will buck and hurt the tranny and engine mountings. but surely the car will stop at a shorter distance. But I dont think that will help it in the long run. And I dont think that people who love to maintain their cars will love that too.
Who says downshifting is not for stopping? We are talking about enhancing the braking. There isn't much damage done due to downshifting without rev-matching as long as the "To" gear would not cause the engine RPM to go out of range. This has been discussed a lot of times on this thread itself. A better reading is advised.

And the tranny will not buck jumping from 4000 to 5000 in some sporadic incidences (its only when you do it time and again it hurts substantially). you make it sound as if the car is not a mechanical device but a piece of glassware!

All "trannies" (Transmission systems) have tolerances built into them. Engineering always have "factor of safety" loading accounted for (provided that you have the bold part accounted for).

Please note we have already discussed ABS,brake modulation etc earlier on this thread. Loving to maintain your car is fine, but at emergency situations love for your own car is rightly the last thing on ones mind and preferences.

Last edited by 1100D : 30th July 2007 at 00:11.
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Old 30th July 2007, 00:35   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sathya_nars View Post
Now, another question: I have ABS, so I shouldn't pump the brake at anytime, I always should keep it pressed letting ABS do pumping (as per manual).
Yep, that's correct.

Quote:
So, what is best way for me during panic and known obstacles situation?
The best way for you is to do what comes instinctively to you. In a panic situation you are not going to have time to think what the Team BHP recommended method is
If you're used to downshifting while braking, you'll probably do that without realizing it.
However, as I mentioned before, it is unlikely that you will have time to downshift when you have a split second to react. Others may disagree... this is IMHO.

Last edited by razor4077 : 30th July 2007 at 00:36.
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Old 30th July 2007, 00:40   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
but at emergency situations love for your own car is rightly the last thing on ones mind and preferences.
his was wat I had mentioned in my first post in this thread when I had said that to avoid a head on collision one might have to even do a 5th to 1st shift and forget about his car. hope you too have done the reading . Anyway , I dont want to start an argument but what I think is that we are hinting at the same point.. so my point of view stops here PERIOD.
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Old 30th July 2007, 01:21   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razor4077 View Post
Nice discussion. My 2 cents...
Engine braking is something that becomes an instinct, a habit, after one uses it regularly. The gut reaction that most of us have is to stand on the brakes in case of a sudden obstacle. But someone who is used to engine braking, i.e, rapid downshifting, combines both in such a situation. I personally use a combination of brakes and downshifting to slow down. It's become a habit now... hardly think twice about it.
yea...this is exactly what i do to.and if u do it all the time in an emergency ur gonna do it without thinking and its gonna make you stop much faster.
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Old 30th July 2007, 07:23   #41
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I think down shifting is not practical in case of sudden stops. If we down shift while breaking, we need to press clutch at least a few seconds for each gear shift and this will make engine breaking ineffective giving forward push to the vehicle. Now a days cars come with good breaks which alone can stop car safe. So, in my opinion just apply break without changing gear and without applying clutch in case of abrupt stops.
Down shifting is practical only in case of break failure so that there is no other option left. Just release A, Press C, Change gear to Neutral, Release C, Press A, release A, Press C,Down shift gear, Release C...continue this sequence for each down shift. Thanks.
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Old 30th July 2007, 07:41   #42
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Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
his was wat I had mentioned in my first post in this thread when I had said that to avoid a head on collision one might have to even do a 5th to 1st shift and forget about his car. hope you too have done the reading . Anyway , I dont want to start an argument but what I think is that we are hinting at the same point.. so my point of view stops here PERIOD.
Its not possible to get down shifted from 5th to 1st gear in normal case and if it happens you will surely circle in the road and get landed in authorised service centre. You need to match rpm before down shifting and for that we must either wait to slow down the speed to match the rpm of "TO" gear or first shift to neutral then release clutch and press Accelerator to increase rpm, then press clutch and down shift. If you down shift too lower gears ie. from 5 to 3, you need to accelerate more while gear is in neutral position and clutch released. Thanks.
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Old 30th July 2007, 16:32   #43
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Originally Posted by vinfriend View Post
Its not possible to get down shifted from 5th to 1st gear in normal case and if it happens you will surely circle in the road and get landed in authorised service centre. You need to match rpm before down shifting and for that we must either wait to slow down the speed to match the rpm of "TO" gear or first shift to neutral then release clutch and press Accelerator to increase rpm, then press clutch and down shift. If you down shift too lower gears ie. from 5 to 3, you need to accelerate more while gear is in neutral position and clutch released. Thanks.
I was not talking about normal case. one does not do such downshifts in normal cases and you dont need to tell anybody what the consequence will be. hope you understand.
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Old 31st July 2007, 06:38   #44
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I was not talking about normal case. one does not do such downshifts in normal cases and you dont need to tell anybody what the consequence will be. hope you understand.
Its not possible to downshift from 5th to 2nd bcoz that much speed difference will not allow you to put gear to lower level and the gear mechanism will be slipping away producing the grinding noise! Moreover, If you had applied breaks, without pressing clutch trying to downshift, the car would have been stopped earlier! The few seconds you press clutch the breaking power will reduce loosing engine breaking and leads to loss of control and skidding also. Just speed up to 70km/hr and try to shift gear to 2nd pressing clutch...you will hear grinding noise but it will never move to 2nd position and engage...to avoid damage never release clutch before shifting to 5th again!! Has anybody here ever been able to downshift from 5th / 4th to 2nd? Plz share your experience....
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Old 1st August 2007, 02:29   #45
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For all those who think engine braking doesn't help come down to Chennai this 4th and I will ask some well known drivers on the circuit arena prove its use on our road cars. No cars under 20L in India come equipped with brakes that you can be confident of stopping at the desired distance in slightly adverse conditions.

Its all done in an instance, I can say that it certainly did save my front bumper today. Maybe more.

Vinfriend, if I am doing about 100kmph in 5th I am sure all baleno owners can shift down into second without a hassle. I have done it personally. And all those who are talking about saving the engine and tranny do realize that this is being advocated in adverse situations. Anyone concerned about their own safety will worried about their life and not about the wear and tear of parts caused. Some of us take our cars and belt around the track. That doesn't mean that we don't love our cars or don't maintain them.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 1st August 2007 at 02:31.
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