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Old 22nd July 2009, 11:37   #16
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Anup, have you tried this
Turn ignition to on position, the glow plug light comes on. Then do not crank, turn of ignition and then again go to on position.
do this 2-3 times before cranking.
Other thing to try is pour hot water(60 degreeC) on the engine block before cranking.

The glow blocks heat the engine block. At lower altitudes even when cold air is dense, so heating is better.
With rarified air, I think glow plugs are not heating properly.
So if with hot water treatment scorpio starts then it means the glow plugs are the culprit.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 11:51   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Anup, have you tried this
Turn ignition to on position, the glow plug light comes on. Then do not crank, turn of ignition and then again go to on position.
do this 2-3 times before cranking.
Tried this already! Didn't help.

I am repeatedly being told there are no glow plugs used in the CRDe.
Further, the problem does not seem to be on account of low temperatures. It is a combination with at least one other factor. What?
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Old 22nd July 2009, 11:55   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
It is a combination with at least one other factor. What?
The rarefied air I'd think? Not necessarily the low temperature? If it was low temp, you'd face it even in Delhi on the occasions when temps plummet. I don't think you've ever faced it in the plains have you?

Last edited by suman : 22nd July 2009 at 11:57.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:07   #19
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Hmm no glow plugs, crde's do not require long glow plug duration like IDIs but doing it away altogether could be an issue.
Now to understand what do glow plugs do, heres what happens.

In diesel engine, the the piston compresses the air to a very hot temp. A fine mist of fuel is sprayed which ignites due to the heat. This is the diesel engine or a Compression ignition engine.

Now in a small engine, lets say indica 1.4, the cylinder is small. So if cylinder head and walls is very cold, since the actual volume of air is very less, it cools down quickly and fuel does not ignite. Hence you need assistance, which glow plug provides.
Once ignition takes pace glow plugs go off, and no issues.

Large engines (> 3 liter) have huge volume of air, so cooling effect is not so much, so many large vehicles actually do not need glow plugs.
The 2.6 engine I think sits in the boundary region.
So with dense air with good air pressure it will work, but when air is very rarified, there it cools down quicker.

To test this theory, the best way is to put hot water on the engine block and then crank. If you can crank easily it means the absence of glow plugs is the culprit(if they are not there).

Safari 2.2 and 3.0 have the glow plug light come on when you turn ignition on. An engine as large as 3.0 actually does not need glow plugs, but 2.2 would need them, esp at high altitudes.

Smaller cars like 1.4L engine will refuse to start even in plains with ambient temp of 15 degrees if glow plugs go kaput. So you have to put hot water. I used to do hot water start in winters when the glow plug went kaput.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:10   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha View Post
I use K&N Stock Filter no problem with dusts.
Unfortunately, the dust problem may not be visible in the short term, but may surface as reduced engine life. Having said that, maybe it still kept the dust out to prevent that from happening, keep your fingers crossed on that one! And if one wants to add shrouds and stuff, what is wrong with carrying a brand new OE filter and installing it just before setting out from, say, Manali? Easily done. Will a shrouded performance filter allow for air to be pulled in easier by the intake vacuum than through a brand new or recently cleaned OE filter?
Reading the rest of the thread the only thing that comes to my mind is the temp plus wind combination( windchill) that can get the effective temp to be a lot colder, up to ten to twenty celsius. Did the car not start even when it was parked in the manner set out by HVKumar on his posts?
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:17   #21
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Tanveer, there are no glow plugs in any of the CRDe Scorpios and other Scorpio users are not having this starting issue.

The temperatures when I've tried have always been greater than 15° celsius, thus I'm ruling out temperature as being the sole reason.

In Delhi, even with morning temps in the region of 4° celsius I've never had problem with morning start. So it definitely has to do with altitude.

I'm beginning to fret a bit now as my warranty will run out in one year from now. The only way to test any rectification attempts will be to head for a high altitude place and stay a night or two there, which of course, is such a welcome thought!
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:18   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Safari 2.2 and 3.0 have the glow plug light come on when you turn ignition on. An engine as large as 3.0 actually does not need glow plugs,
Huh?? Glow plug light, which one is that? The 3.0L doesn't have glow plugs AFAIK.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:23   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Did the car not start even when it was parked in the manner set out by HVKumar on his posts?
Indeed it didn't. Though, of course, I had not blocked the radiator grille etc.

In reasonably well protected parking areas too the problem persists. It was one of the first ploys I had tried.
Interestingly, if I delay the morning start to late morning, there is no problem!
Seems to definitely hint at temperature related issues!
I tried this at Kharapathar. Tried at 0630 hrs - no go. Tried again at 1030 hrs - fired first shot! Temperatures were between 18 and 22° celsius.

BTW, even with windchill, the temperature was not a thing below 12° celsius.

I carry my Kestrel with me:

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Last edited by anupmathur : 22nd July 2009 at 12:32.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 12:28   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
Tanveer, there are no glow plugs in any of the CRDe Scorpios and other Scorpio users are not having this starting issue.
As suman posted earlier Roshun and others also faced this issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by suman View Post
Huh?? Glow plug light, which one is that? The 3.0L doesn't have glow plugs AFAIK.
OIC, the 2,2 has a glow plug light, it comes on for couple of seconds when you turn on ignition.
An engine as large as 3.0 liter does not need glow plugs but smaller ones do
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Old 22nd July 2009, 13:37   #25
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Add a small quantity of Kerosene in your diesel when in high altitude areas. Works like magic for those cold starts.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 13:59   #26
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@Anoop,

Did you get a diagnostic check done at the service centre to find the fault codes ?

- Ravi
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Old 22nd July 2009, 17:47   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravindra M View Post
@Anoop,
Did you get a diagnostic check done at the service centre to find the fault codes ?
They had done that after my Leh trip. No error codes!
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Old 22nd July 2009, 17:56   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hvkumar View Post
Agreed. But, I am also fitting the "wraps" which K&N sells for protection against dust.
Hai,

Go for the stock replacement filter, it just goes into the original air filter box, though a little taller, they put a sealant to ensure air does not leak in through the junctions.

I read of someone wrapping their universal filter in plastic just before washing, the engine was started by mistake and got cooked!!!! Need to be careful with them during service.

---

Last edited by ramkya1 : 22nd July 2009 at 17:57.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 18:01   #29
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K&N Air Filter Wraps
That is the site with info on the wraps.

PreCharger® - The K&N PreCharger is a specially designed filter wrap made to extend the service interval of your K&N Filter when used in very dusty conditions. They are made from durable polyester material containing uniform micron openings. The PreCharger will stop small dirt particles; yet add little restriction to the airflow of the filter. The PreCharger is designed to be run dry and can be cleaned with K&N Filter Cleaner. The PreCharger is custom made to fit each application. Double stitched elastic openings assure that the PreCharger will stay in place. The PreChargers are available in a variety of colors.

DryCharger® - K&N DryChargers® are manufactured from a durable polyester material and are pre-treated with a proprietary hydrophobic process designed to prevent splashes of water or mud from saturating your K&N air filter. The DryCharger will also stop small dirt particles; yet add little restriction to the airflow of the filter. Please be aware the DryCharger is water repellent, not water proof. Depending on conditions and usage the water repellent treatment is good for 1 to 2 years.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 18:23   #30
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Suman Ghosh, a member of our scorpio forum and owning a CRDe SLX had this problem the most at all places - Leh, Jispa, Pangong Tso, Hunder, Tso Moriri and other high altitudes where we camped for the night, except Manali .

He had to use the primer fuel pump in the bonnet quite a lot before the vehicle fired. Even Roshun experienced this and had to pump.

My non-CRDe gave me this problem only at Tso Moriri where it took more than 10 cranks to start at 9 in the morning. Rest everywhere it was the first crank..

For non-CRDes that are without the ECUs, please disconnect the EGR valve after you cross Rohtang. Otherwise you will experience stalling as you climb higher and higher. Of course this will emit smoke, but there is no way around.

As regards the aftermarket air-filter like K&N etc., I use the Green Cotton Storm and had absolutely no problem at all, other than its housing which broke due to constant vibration & rattling..

Last edited by gd1418 : 22nd July 2009 at 18:26.
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