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Old 6th September 2007, 20:49   #1
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Default G16B or Baleno specific Turbo related thread. Need your inputs.

After a lot of thinking, I have finally come to a decision. Thanks to all those who helped me out with this thread. All your suggestions were considered with a lot of seriousness before making up my mind. It was a tough choice between the MIVEC Lancer and the Turbo Baleno. What sealed it for the Baleno in the end was:

1. Carrying forward after having spent so much time and money on the Baleno.
2. Ease of availability of spares should something go wrong with constant abuse on track and drags.
3. Advantage of being able to use lesser octane fuel and the ease of availability.
4. Advantage of knowing the history of the engine and what it has gone through and the problems faced.
5. The feeling I would love to have to see the turbo kick in and push you back into the seat.

This decision has not been made in a haste, but after a lot of pondering I guess this suits me the best. So now lets get into the technical details.

Firstly, I am in no hurry to complete this project. Sourcing of components will start about January 2008 and I intend to complete the install by March or April. This will not only allow me to study in depth about the topic but also let me gather up my finances and plan it out well.

Aim: I am aiming at around 200-250 bhp tops at the flywheel. Boost not over 17-18psi. Use will be mainly a good street setup running at about 7-10psi for daily use and upwards of 1 bar for drag or track use.

How I would like it setup: Turbo should kick in at about 3500 rpm. This will enable me to drive the car around city and highways just like a NA car. So now the questions that crop up.

1. What turbo. Make? Size?
2. What other internals will the engine need to be forged apart from conrods, pistons, crank? Aftermarket cam, valve springs, FPR already upgraded.
3. Clutch, intercooler, BOV, Subaru 380 cc injectors, boost controller, Stand alone ECU, plumbing, gauges etc will also be sourced.

But in order to get a better understanding of the topic at hand here are a few G16B related questions to which I would need some help with.

1. What kind of a turbo to be used? Hybrid?
2. What is the ideal size for turbo TRIM?
3. A/R size?
4. What type of manifolds? Log style or Tubular?
5. What is the ideal CR. And how to achieve it? Is it better to go with the high compression pistons I already have and get a thicker laser cut metal head gasket to lower the compression or pick up a 8.1:1 CR forged pistons?
6. What would be the Ideal AFR values? I am assuming it would be safer to run a slightly richer mixture?
7. What is the role of pressure ratio? How does it affect setting up of a turbo based on sea level or height from it? How differently will the turbo have to be setup for a place like Bangalore (3,300 ft above sea lever) compared to a place like Bombay?
8. How to determine the MASS FLOW RATE?
9. How does rod ratio affect engine power produced in terms of low end revs and high end revs? What would be the ideal rod ratio to have a engine rev upto 7000-7500 rpm?
10. What would the maximum RPM be on the G16 for an ideal street, track & drag setups?
11. How to determine the Engine Volumetric Efficiency (VE) of the G16B and what role it plays?
12. What is BSFC? And what role does it play?

Kindly, do add if I have missed out on something.

I would really appreciate if you guys were able to answer my long list of queries not in a generalized fashion but pertaining to the G16B. Don't hesitate to ask for any specific details which will help you guys explain it better. Looking forward to replies from Psycho, Sideways, Ford Rocam, Ananthkamath, Chetanhanda, v1p3r, cinclaturbo and the whole lot of others whom I might have forgotten to mention. Thanks in advance.
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Old 6th September 2007, 21:13   #2
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rahul - i dont know the least bit about turbos but another member neo_trace had a turboed baleno. you could pm him for some info.
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Old 6th September 2007, 22:18   #3
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Originally Posted by akshay1234 View Post
rahul - i dont know the least bit about turbos but another member neo_trace had a turboed baleno. you could pm him for some info.
If i remember correctly neo_trace has a Turbo Baleno running with LPG right?
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Old 6th September 2007, 22:21   #4
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If i remember correctly neo_trace has a Turbo Baleno running with LPG right?
Yes, he had a turbo baleno with LPG. Last I heard he was on the verge of blowing his engine IIRC. Primarily because he didn't get himself an aftermarket ECU & bigger injectors. Then I guess he went to viper for rectification and since then no news from his end. Only Jiggy can clarify his current status I guess.

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Old 6th September 2007, 22:26   #5
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You have a lot of time on your hands,please utilise it .. go through as many forums as possible and search search search.Stop watching entourage.

Nobody on this forum is going to hold your hand and walk you through this,primarily because only a handful have practical,hands-on experience.
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Old 6th September 2007, 22:57   #6
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You have a lot of time on your hands,please utilise it .. go through as many forums as possible and search search search.
I am reading up on a lot of forums. Infact, since not many of them are G16B related these are just a few questions I picked up from a lot of them.

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Stop watching entourage.
Thanks for reminding. I have totally forgotten to download the last two episodes

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Nobody on this forum is going to hold your hand and walk you through this,primarily because only a handful have practical,hands-on experience.
Very well said, Binoy I am putting in a lot of hours reading about how it was done on other cars etc. And some of it is beyond a lay man's understanding. Some of the questions I asked have been asked on other forums too. I am just looking at a perspective of hoping that people who have either done it already or are planning to do it will be able to help as well. It helps to have people you know with hands on experience. Lets see how much of help I am able to get from TBHP. Going by the past records, I am hoping I wont be disappointed.
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Old 6th September 2007, 22:58   #7
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Good on you. This has always been your dream project, since when you had Disco '82. Hope to see you burn the strip and set a new 1650 record.

I think you're going to be on your own on this one. As of now, no one has turbocharged a Baleno and had no engine-related issues except Leelakrishnan. All advice, if given, will likely be general, and not specific.

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What other internals will the engine need to be forged apart from conrods, pistons, crank?
Just out of curiosity, what sort of manufacturing process are your current conrods and crank made from?
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Old 6th September 2007, 23:19   #8
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Hope to see you burn the strip and set a new 1650 record.
Honestly speaking that is not what I am aiming to achieve. What I am looking at is building a quick car to satisfy my hunger for power and speed and some fun on the drag strip and tracks too if the opportunity comes its way and not the other way round. I repeat this build is not for purely drag/track days ONLY.

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I think you're going to be on your own on this one. As of now, no one has turbocharged a Baleno and had no engine-related issues except Leelakrishnan. All advice, if given, will likely be general, and not specific.
Let me rephrase that. I meant if someone could give me some general figures and help me utilize them in applying to the figures of the G16B. For eg, what would be the ideal rod ratio to enable the power band to be higher up the rev range or lower down? Based on this ideal constant, I could calculate what rod ratio to achieve on the G16B and how to go about it.

Going by recent calculations by a close friend the forged conrods & crank currently running in the car have a rod ratio of 1.53 which I am told is not good for a high revving turbo setup. So if I can figure out an ideal rod ratio to overcome this I could order new parts or use the stock parts or match various parts to achieve the desired ratio. I hope you get the drift?

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Just out of curiosity, what sort of manufacturing process are your current conrods and crank made from?
You know I am not good at this. But I guess OEM must be cast? I am sure the pistons are. Will have to find out what process the current set of stuff running on my engine right now are from, from the persons tuner I bought it from. Or maybe Psycho will be able to give some lead on this since he has worked on it?
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Old 7th September 2007, 06:06   #9
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Yes, he had a turbo baleno with LPG. Last I heard he was on the verge of blowing his engine IIRC. Primarily because he didn't get himself an aftermarket ECU & bigger injectors. Then I guess he went to viper for rectification and since then no news from his end. Only Jiggy can clarify his current status I guess.
Hi,

He came to me after he blew his original turbo setup installed by N1 Racing. We sorted out his plumbing issues and a complete reinstall and the car was working just fine. He later on installed a LPG kit himself in Surat and last I spoke to him(20 days back) the car was running extremely well and he is very satisfied.

For further updates you can contact him directly.

Viper
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Old 7th September 2007, 10:03   #10
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I would be glad to answer all the queries you posted & give you a few suggestion too... but i guess it will be better to expect answers from people who have Practically worked & done on various turbo setups and are sucessfull. since my setup has not reached at turboing stage yet, all my answers will be theoraticle but not practical implimented & There's great bit of difference in saying & doing things Practicle. The queries you posted, i dont think anyone in India goes indepth in detail barring few.

Neo_Trace had bad plumbing, Viper/Ar Motorsport rectified that, but the original problem of Check MIL & no boost above 4psi could not be rectified. i was present there during all these & when he last left for surat from mumbai,hence he went a different route "LPG turbo" at surat. A dyno test will reveal how much or any power if he is making.
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Old 7th September 2007, 10:25   #11
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I would be glad to answer all the queries you posted & give you a few suggestion too...
Jitu, I am all ears open. Go on. Please.

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There's great bit of difference in saying & doing things Practicle.
True, but a little bit of knowledge (or lot of it) always helps. Whether its practical or theoretical.

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The queries you posted, i dont think anyone in India goes indepth in detail barring few.
I hope I am not just worrying too much? Or should cut some slack and go easy on the build. Thing is I would like to explore every detail possible since I have so much time and so much to learn. Even if half the things are not put into practice I am sure the knowledge will help some day or the other. It does no harm to know.

Jitu, I request you to start with all that you can. You never know, the rest might join in and make this topic a very interesting one . Eagerly awaiting your reply.
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Old 7th September 2007, 14:44   #12
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Rahul, nice to see you have decided to retain the 'leno and plonk in a turbo. Have you identified a tuner who can do this install successfully?

Would love to see the progress in every stage and finally hitch a ride in it on track. This is gonna be killer. All the best bro.
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Old 7th September 2007, 15:27   #13
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Rahul, most of the parameters you mention are used at design stages. Even if you DO get the values, you cannot actually verify or enforce them since we do not have sufficient test equipment.

Here are the basic stuff. Keep these in mind first.

1) Get as many gauges as possible. A wideband O2 sensor is a must. So are boost, I/T temp, block temp, etc.

2) Look at realistic figures. Running 18 Psi requires a lot of work. Do not forget that forged pistons have slap, and the cylinder pressure is not handled by pistons alone. Anything above a bar, or 14.503 PSi of boost, & you would need a blueprinted/selved block with moly internals to handle that pressure reliably. We're talking cylinder pressures of over 230-240 Psi..

3) Getting into specifics; for a 1.6; Here's the deal. A/R- not more than 0.48, if you want the boost to kick in at 3K. Get proper cams. Dunno what profile would go for this sort of boost, cyl. cc, etc. You'd also need titanium springs, new lifters. Trim-not important unless going in for hybrid. Inducer/exducer or turbine/impeller ratios are not sigficant for actual applications. Used for design purposes only.

4) Tubular manifolds allow maximum flow. Simple physics- a circle has the highest area possible of all available shapes.

Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, again, is used for design purposes.

Jeetu bhai is right. Actual implementation is way different. Not enough equipment to test & apply. At least not here. Trial & error methods, as seen before, are far too cumbersome & expensive...
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Old 7th September 2007, 15:35   #14
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Atul, I guess most of these parameters will enable one to choose the right turbo and not end up with one that is either too big or too small for the engine and the requirement. Yes, I am looking at going hybrid. And people have managed close to 2 bar with just forged internals on the twin cam gti's and some J18s. And do keep in mind that we now have a working dyno in Bombay. I really don't mind travelling all the way to have it setup the right way.

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Old 7th September 2007, 16:44   #15
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Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
I think you're going to be on your own on this one. As of now, no one has turbocharged a Baleno and had no engine-related issues except Leelakrishnan.
A couple of years back, there was a TC Baleno used as a demo car during the Koni suspension demo organised by the Methods guys at MMSC. Not sure who the owners are though.. probably belongs to Methods or one of their distributor/dealers.
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