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Old 15th April 2014, 00:03   #121
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

I am a very regular ghat road driver. But I have rarely used the hand brake technique, may be once or twice. But in my Jeep which doesn't have hand brakes, I either use heel & toe or switch to low range if it is really bad. For my regular uphill driving, I try to avoid surprises by taking wide turns to improve visibility around the corner. I also downshift around steep curves instead of purely relying on momentum.

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Originally Posted by AJIT R KANALE View Post
I use the half clutch in my Vento to move the vehicle initially. And then use the accelerator to pick up the momentum. Pretty easy and straightforward.
Hmm, not sure I understand this at all. Why do you need to half clutch to move the vehicle initially? And how do you avoid switching pedal? Don't you press the brakes with your right foot while engaging 1st gear, and then move that foot to the A-pedal?

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Originally Posted by AJIT R KANALE View Post
NOTE: This might bring down the life of the brake shoe. So apply the half clutch sparingly.
There is no connection between half-clutching and brake shoes. You are actually killing your clutch plate.

Last edited by Samurai : 15th April 2014 at 00:17.
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Old 15th April 2014, 07:20   #122
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

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Originally Posted by shashank.nk View Post
So I was recently driving back from the hills, and faced this issue when the car had to go up a rather steep slope.

The car had built sufficient momentum to go through easily but that was not to be. A huge group who were shooting at the location decide to cross the road and I had to brake. It was a pretty steep gradient before it leveled off and I was at the apex probably. I tried the heel and toe method but the car rolled back rather scarily. Depressed clutch,Engaged handbrakes,let go of the clutch slowly keeping the handbrake on but the car rolled back again.

So gave it a little gas and got the RPM upto 2k (just when turbo spools in a Swift D) car did nothing,neither rolled back nor moved front. Now gave it more gas till the RPM was at 3k (engine redlines at 5k),turned the AC off and released the clutch slowly whilst keeping accelerator pedal burried nearly,only to scare those nearby and get the dreaded burnt clutch smell.

What could I have done differently here? Or, is it a sign of weak clutch ? I was told I could have reversed a little and driven back again with sufficient momentum since there was no vehicle behind me,but this may not always be the case.
I cant really comment on your clutch but on occasions it is better to simply reverse a little to gain momentum for the steep climb rather than reduce the life of your clutch significantly. The heel and toe technique has always worked for me except in cases where there is very little traction(rain/really wet) and in these cases I usually backup a little to gain momentum. I remember doing so a couple of times when crossing rohtang last year beacuse it was raining heavily and my hatchback was getting stuck repeatedly.
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Old 15th April 2014, 12:02   #123
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

Can someone help me with this reversing up a slope query? Thanks.

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Originally Posted by black_rider View Post
A query to experts and people who've been driving i20 diesel for some time.

Few days back, I tried to reverse up a slope in a diesel i20, the engine dropped rpms very fast and most of the times stalled as soon as I reached the clutch's bite point, no matter how much throttle I was applying. It must've stalled about 8-9 times in that 20 meter long slope. It was on a hill-station, so you can guess the gradient. I could go up only half-clutching with engine revving hard, something I did not like doing to someone else's car. I thought it will be done without all this drama, as diesels make so much torque low down in rpm range.

Never faced such a thing in my petrol Santro. But then I never tried to reverse it up such a long slope.

Does it have something to do with reverse gear ratio? That it is not ideal for going up slopes? Something like trying to take off from zero in 3rd gear on level ground? I was driving a 5-speed pre-facelift i20. BTW, what is the reverse ratio, and how much is the 1st? I know 1st would be smaller than reverse. And GTO's i20 review says 1st was small enough to go up steep slopes :

Or is it this diesel's characteristic, that I need to work up the turbo @2000 rpm to get things moving (in reverse on a slope)?

If neither is the case, I'll take it to be my inexperience with someone else's car, that too a diesel (have not driven many diesels). But I have been driving for over 15 years now, and have driven many different cars, over varied surfaces without a hitch.
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Old 15th April 2014, 12:37   #124
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

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Originally Posted by black_rider View Post
Can someone help me with this reversing up a slope query? Thanks.
An i20 diesel is notorious for this in stop and go situations on inclines.
It has to do with engine characteristics and turbo lag;momentum is the key,if you lose it,you will need to work the engine hard to make it climb.

Santro with its excellent Low end torque will overcome such a situation easily.
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Old 15th April 2014, 13:42   #125
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Originally Posted by akshay4587 View Post
An i20 diesel is notorious for this in stop and go situations on inclines.
It has to do with engine characteristics and turbo lag;momentum is the key,if you lose it,you will need to work the engine hard to make it climb.
....
I tend to think this simply underlines poor design/engineering! Part of the planned obsolescence philosophy. More fried clutch plates, more the revenue!
Why should every car not have a 'crawling' ability? In first gear and reverse gear this feature ought to be mandated by legislation! This is, in fact, a very important 'safety' aspect.
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Old 15th April 2014, 17:09   #126
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

The steepest slopes I recall having ever driven on in my car (Linea TJet+) was on the way to Matheran.

There was only me and my wife on board and it was during the monsoons! We had no trouble either on the way up or on the way down. I only took care to start early so that we met sparse traffic and tried to make sure that while navigating hairpins and steep inclines I had a clear road ahead of me and just used the momentum of the car to climb up.

The other time was of course on our trip to Leh only this time I was on my Bike and we encountered several inclines which coupled with ever depleting oxygen made driving very exciting. Here I used the same strategy of using the momentum of the bike, but this was often found wanting as we climbed ever higher. I had to regularly slip the clutch to power the bike onwards! Eventually that too failed and on our climb up to Baralachla, the bike refused to move.

Last edited by PGNarain : 15th April 2014 at 17:11.
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Old 15th April 2014, 22:49   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by black_rider View Post
Can someone help me with this reversing up a slope query? Thanks.
I20 has this problem where in on the medium slopes also you should either have momentum or launch by slipping the clutch till 2k RPM. Problem is present in both 5 and 6 speed versions and I am also personally fed up of this drawback
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Old 16th April 2014, 14:54   #128
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by shashank.nk View Post
So I was recently driving back from the hills, and faced this issue when the car had to go up a rather steep slope.

So gave it a little gas and got the RPM upto 2k (just when turbo spools in a Swift D)

What could I have done differently here? Or, is it a sign of weak clutch ? I was told I could have reversed a little and driven back again with sufficient momentum since there was no vehicle behind me,but this may not always be the case.
I faced the exact same problem in my uncles 2 yr old Swift D (pre-facelift) when climbing the Ooty ghats. A tempo traveller was stuck right in the middle of the road on an extremely steep section. Many cars, including ours had to stop to negotiate the gap. Once stopped, we just could not make the swift move forward again, no matter how much we revved up even with brutal clutch slipping. We were 3 people and some luggage which means it wanst even fully loaded. Finally, I had to place a stone at the rear wheel after which my uncle drove to the nearest not-so-steep section after which I could climb up. Backing up was not a option due to another Figo which was huffing behind us barely 1 feet away.

I could not help but notice, but all petrol cars had absolutely no problems while doing this. All diesel cars: the swift in question, the figo behind us and a Micra ahead of us were simply struggling to do this.

Which brings me to this question. What is more improtant while climbing a hill? Power or Torque. If it is Torque, then why did all diesel cars struggle even when revved to their peak torque band while all petrol counter parts happily made their way up?

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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
I tend to think this simply underlines poor design/engineering! Part of the planned obsolescence philosophy. More fried clutch plates, more the revenue!
Why should every car not have a 'crawling' ability? In first gear and reverse gear this feature ought to be mandated by legislation! This is, in fact, a very important 'safety' aspect.
Most diesel cars do crawl forward without accelerator input on regular flat road surfaces. It is only on steep inclines that the diesels struggle. As mentioned by many others before me, this ability to climb through a steep slope from standstill seems to be a weak point with most modern diesels, and not restrcited to the i20. what is required in such situations is a Hill-hold function.

Last edited by racer_ash : 16th April 2014 at 15:03. Reason: added additional quote
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Old 16th April 2014, 15:55   #129
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by racer_ash View Post
Power or Torque.
Defenitely torque. The key is not to release or start releasing the clutch unless the engine is in the required rpm, in most cases people start releasing the clutch eventhough they raise the rpm eventually result in clutch slipping. Once the engine reaches the rpm, start releasing the clutch, the clutch will not slip as before. The best way is to have hand brakes / stopper for the rear wheels incase of FWDs or you should be very confident in heel and toe method.

Petrols will get the torque in very early rpms than the diesel engines.

Quote:
Most diesel cars do crawl forward without accelerator input on regular flat road surfaces.
Its because of the anti-stall mechanism
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Old 16th April 2014, 16:13   #130
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

I think it's better to use the torque if car is diesel even to some extent petrol cars pulls without pressing accelrator, I use hand break technique very rarely, diesel motors torque pulls the car easily without accelrator and i never use half clutch, just release it slowly and once the car comes in motion take the command over accelrator.
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Old 16th April 2014, 16:37   #131
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Originally Posted by Ajaybiz View Post
just release it slowly and once the car comes in motion take the command over accelrator.
Which diesel engine can give enough torque to move forward on a steep hill at a very low rpm?

Last edited by ::CMS:: : 16th April 2014 at 16:40.
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Old 16th April 2014, 17:32   #132
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

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Which diesel engine can give enough torque to move forward on a steep hill at a very low rpm?
None as per me. Why, even in normal traffic situations, most of these turbo charged engines perform pathetically below their turbo range. Forget about steep climbs. Ofcourse I am talking about the best selling Diesels and not the high end BMWs and Audis, all of which I have never driven.
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Old 16th April 2014, 17:48   #133
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

Though i am late to bump in to this thread , i am glad i did.

I was always feeling till now that steep climbs is inherently a weak point of my Manza diesel .
But it seems this is common to most modern diesel engines now a days.

2 situations :
1) My gym has basement parking slot and the incline is slightly more steep then the regular basement inclines. Here the Manza Diesel , climbs (AC off) without any Accelerator input . Initially i used to boost of this feature to my friend sitting next to me by showing him my right foot free in air and not pressing the A pedal while the car used to negotiate the climb all by itself. My friend used to get astonished.
(later with time i realized it is the diesel torque + ECU controlled fuel pumping etc. at work)

2)this is the tricky one:
Now coming to extremely steep and dangerous inclines.

Previous to the Manza i had the swift petrol:
While in swift petrol , the trip to Lonavla : there is 1 particular hair pin incline(enroute to amby valley) which is tooo steep and dangerous. In swift i had to be watchful with this incline but always did it with simple alert A pedal input and switching the AC off.
Now with the Manza 3 years back : My 1st trip , i was shocked when i stalled it on that incline.
I negotiated the incline somehow with hand brake , clutch slipping and aggressive a pedal input. My Family was a little scared while through this
Later on with numerous visit to Lonavla i have now learnt to negotiate this hairpin incline.

I tend to avoid the steepest part of the incline by taking the long turn . But if the there is an oncoming traffic , i bank on momentum , downshifting (clutch depressed) , RPm above 2800-3000 band and clutch slipping .
But yes the point is this is inherent to modern diesel engines ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by racer_ash View Post
None as per me. Why, even in normal traffic situations, most of these turbo charged engines perform pathetically below their turbo range. Forget about steep climbs. Ofcourse I am talking about the best selling Diesels and not the high end BMWs and Audis, all of which I have never driven.
+1, exactly my thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ::CMS:: View Post
Which diesel engine can give enough torque to move forward on a steep hill at a very low rpm?
I guess the good Ol Sumo with 3.0L naturally aspirated diesel engine.

As they say "NO REPLACEMENT TO DISPLACMENT"

Last edited by madhu33 : 16th April 2014 at 18:03.
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Old 16th April 2014, 20:41   #134
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

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Originally Posted by racer_ash View Post
All diesel cars: the swift in question, the figo behind us and a Micra ahead of us were simply struggling to do this.
Which brings me to this question. What is more improtant while climbing a hill? Power or Torque. If it is Torque, then why did all diesel cars struggle even when revved to their peak torque band while all petrol counter parts happily made their way up?
You're right. Atleast on paper the diesels have an advantage but the issue might be most diesels make their peak torque only around 2k rpm. In the Swift D its 190nm at 2000rpm,so unless we revv the engine till 2k the car is going to struggle. The key may be to release the clutch slowly once the car hits 2k like CMS has mentioned.

But I was stumped when the car began rolling back. I think higher displacement engines won't struggle as much. Like you, I had no choice but to brake as these guys decided to cross all of a sudden,I braked just in time.
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Old 16th April 2014, 21:15   #135
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Default Re: What's your technique while driving uphill ??

I've always used the hand-brake method in city and on moderate inclines. Engage first gear, throttle and release clutch & hand-brake in sync and car moves effortlessly forward. Can't remember a recent roll-back and the consequent panic honks from people who insist on stopping bumper-to-bumper even on inclines (I like giving one the occasional scare though).

On steep inclines, it's always imperative to be alert because the hand-brake isn't always effective (esp. if both rear wheels aren't on the same surface, the car tends to slide a little).

It's best not to take the inside line - the steepest point - on a steep uphill turn, and if you ever need to start from a standstill on a steep slope, don't panic and over-rev to the point you're just burning rubber & clutch and not getting any traction. Calm down and try again. It doesn't matter if the guy behind is getting angry. He'll get angrier if you roll back and bump his ride.

Disclaimer: I've only ever driven NA Petrols, no experience of turbocharged engines of any fuel type.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 16th April 2014 at 21:21.
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