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Old 3rd May 2013, 09:51   #61
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Default Re: Understanding wheel alignment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
Situation:
Tyres are new,
Wheels are balanced
Alignment readings are good. (Checked in two places)
Swapped front tyres.

Yet, the vehicle continues to pull left. Problem was not there earlier, but is seen now.

What could be the cause ?
I am assuming that you are talking about your storme !. If so then here are the factory specs .. read the details there and get it verified from TASS & done there itself. (Same reading from Storme Mannual as well).

Quote:
Managed to find the correct factory specs of Safari alignment from manual which are below (PS: This holds true for Storme as well. Saw it in mannual)
-------------------
Camber 0 + 30

Caster 3 30

Toe – in total 2 – 5 mm
----------------------
LH to RH variation of caster to be within 45'
LH to RH variation of camber to be within 30'

If caster is off, vehicle pulling is the symptom
If camber is off, then it eats your tires.
PS: The tire pressure and the vehicle height needs to be as prescribed while during alignment

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post3103580

Last edited by Rahulk76 : 3rd May 2013 at 09:53.
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Old 3rd May 2013, 09:55   #62
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Default Re: Understanding wheel alignment.

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Originally Posted by Rahulk76 View Post
@Rahul, thanks. The settings are almost perfect, and usual steps of tyre-swaps (left to right) have been done.

OT:
I see a Storme in your profile pic. Did you get one ?
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Old 3rd May 2013, 10:06   #63
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Default Re: Understanding wheel alignment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
@Rahul, thanks. The settings are almost perfect, and usual steps of tyre-swaps (left to right) have been done.

OT:
I see a Storme in your profile pic. Did you get one ?
So the problem still persists even after the swap ? or its resolved. if not then get that tire on the LHS to the rear.

Storme yea.. well if tml offers it in LX 4x4 with rear wash and wipe then i can think about it real hard.
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Old 9th May 2013, 19:55   #64
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Default Re: Understanding wheel alignment.

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Originally Posted by Rahulk76 View Post
So the problem still persists even after the swap ? or its resolved..
We did a manual alignment and the truck's behaving. Tried for about 150 km after that, and no problems noticed. But further feedback will be next week since no driving for next 4-5 days due to other reasons.

Funny thing is that the Caster is quite off, as per computerised alignment. Toe is slightly off, but at least the left pull has been contained.
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Old 10th May 2013, 05:23   #65
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Default Re: Understanding wheel alignment.

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Originally Posted by gemithomas View Post
does thAt mean that all cars with independent suspensions should get all wheels aligned. ANd he gives me a sheet of paper with some values and colours!!!!!!!!
Oh. And a bill of around Rs.300/-
Wow! I want to come and live in India, in Britain the cost would be from Rs.2400 upwards.
Independent suspension doesn't mean that the settings are adjustable on the rear also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goandude View Post
How is it that in front engine FW drive cars only toe in can be adjusted, while caster and camber cannot?
Caster is rarely adjustable (easily), camber sometimes is. VW's mainstream seller in Europe, the Golf, used to have adjustable camber on the front then with otherwise identical suspenion the newer model didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
We did a manual alignment and the truck's behaving. Tried for about 150 km after that, and no problems noticed. But further feedback will be next week since no driving for next 4-5 days due to other reasons.

Funny thing is that the Caster is quite off, as per computerised alignment. Toe is slightly off, but at least the left pull has been contained.
Old-fashioned garages here (and there are few good ones left) would never use the modern laser four-wheel alignment systems. For a start they wouldn't make enough money to be able to afford them in the first place and secondly they are not completely necessary if you know your job properly. The old methods of suspension and steering alignment are just as accurate, but don't make any profit for the manufacturer/suppliers since they can't/rarely break.

The worst aspect of modern alignment systems is that they allow someone who hasn't a clue what he is doing to operate them. The screen sometimes even tells you where and how to adjust the relevant components. Because there is a posh printout and an expensive load of equipment, the customer often trusts the results implicity - how could such a great bit of equipment be wrong? In the worst cases, the operators don't even attach the equipment to the vehicle correctly, and/or input the vehicle details wrongly.

When it comes to slightly more used cars, especially where roads are poor, it can be an art to set up steering and suspension to work well in practice, rather than in theory. There will always be a little wear here and there on any vehicle which has been used and this needs to be taken into account when adjustments are made.

I have been consulted on race-car design and setup and have been directly involved with motor-racing - winning team - and have always used string, a piece of wood, a tape measure and chalk. And my eye. As well as a driver's feedback.

The first thing any reasonably competent person will do is examine the tyres, feel for wear and inspect for damage before beginning to adjust anything.

Just because a garage has a shiny, new-looking or impressive load of equipment with which to test your car doesn't mean they properly understand what they're doing - more likely that they're daft enough to pay so much money for such gear or think it will impress customers sufficiently to allow them to be contribute to higher profits.
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Old 14th March 2016, 00:49   #66
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Default Out of range Caster and Camber values in a Maruti 800

Dear All,

I own a 16 year old and close to 3 lac kilometers run Maruti 800 5 Speed. Its essentially the love of my life, and no matter what tantrums she throws at me, she will always receive the TLC she has been getting all these years.
Understanding wheel alignment-fr-3-q.jpg


TBHP is like a family to me, hence, I request you to share some of her tantrums.

Coming straight to the point, I am a bit worried from the past few days as the Caster and Camber values of my 800 have gone outside the permitted range. Although there is no issue with the car in general day to day use, I still like my cars to be perfect and any issue, is dealt with in the initial stage.

Attaching some of the alignment reports from the alignment shops. I perform alignments religiously every 5k kms.

1. Date- 13th July 2015
Understanding wheel alignment-20160314_001034.jpg
2. Date- 27th September, 2015
Understanding wheel alignment-20160314_001115.jpg
3. Date- 3rd November, 2015
Understanding wheel alignment-20160314_001131.jpg
4. Date- 29th December, 2015
Understanding wheel alignment-20160314_001144.jpg
5. Date- 8th March, 2016
Understanding wheel alignment-20160314_001209.jpg
6. Permitted Values-Snapshot taken from Workshop Manual
Understanding wheel alignment-toe.jpg

As its evident, the caster and camber values are deteriorating with every alignment.

Some details about my car

1. Front suspension is still factory installed, including lower arms. Nothing has ever been overhauled except changing bushes every now and then.

2. Tie Rod ends have been changed a few times. The current one is about 7 months old.

3. Car has never faced any sort of accidental body damage. The best damage which could have occurred to it was a hit against a divider at some good speeds. The front left tyre crashed into the divider and the divider broke. That incident was in 2003 and no problems have occurred ever since.

My concerns

1. How to bring back the caster and camber values within limits??

2. Right side caster and camber are lesser than the LHS values?? Is the difference normal??

3. Any other irregularities observed in the alignment reports??

Current issues- I have absolutely no issues with the car's road manners now. No pulling or any other issue, except a very minor tilt in steering to the left.

Regards,
Shashi


Request to Dear MODS- Though many thread exist on suspension woes, I request you all to kindly let this thread survive independently till my issue is resolved. After that, I will report this thread, to be either locked or moved to its appropriate location.

Last edited by Leoshashi : 14th March 2016 at 00:58.
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Old 14th March 2016, 11:39   #67
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Default Re: Out of range Caster and Camber values in a Maruti 800

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leoshashi View Post
Dear all, I own a 16 year old Maruti 800 5 Speed. 1. Attaching some of the alignment reports from the alignment shops. 2. I perform alignments religiously every 5k kms. 3. Front suspension is still factory installed, including lower arms. Nothing has ever been overhauled except changing bushes every now and then. The front left tyre crashed into the divider. That incident was in 2003. 4. How to bring back the caster and camber values within limits? I have absolutely no issues with the car's road manners now. No pulling or any other issue, except a very minor tilt in steering to the left. Regards, Shashi
Dear Shashi - thanks for your PM. My point by point reply is as follows:
1. I am being realistic when I tell you that 99.99% of the "wheel alignment" setups have very questionable calibration. Let me explain. If you want to calibrate a vernier caliper, you use a slip gage. Slip gage is the master and the vernier caliper is calibrated. In this case the wheel alignment setup in a typical shop is the vernier caliper, where is the slip gage? And who do you ask? I have asked. I have received answers ranging from the true (very rare) to the timid to the false to the ridiculous to the absolute bizzare. The most common answer is "all this is imported"! . I am only telling you to take the readings with a pinch of salt.
2. Not required, you are only wasting money. The car's behaviour and the tire wear pattern will talk to you, to enable you to take the correct decision. If the car is used carefully, mainly on good roads, once in 50000 kms is good enough. I used to do Nasik-Mumbai-Nasik every week, now I do Pune-Mumbai-Pune every week, I overtake almost anything that moves, my running is tremendous, I do not remember having adjusted toe even in 1 lakh kilometres. In any case, you can't set anything except toe.
3. If the original lower arms have covered 3 lakh kilometres and you mentioned that you suffered a small hit in 2003, now after 13 years it is difficult to presume whether damage still exists or not. As a measure of abundant caution, you may replace the lower arms only. Remember, DO NOT remove anything else. Use only OE lower arms (they may be Rane or Talbros make). I had changed the lower arms in my Maruti 800 after 1 lakh 83 thousand kilometres because the dust cover got punctured. Alongwith the control arms, once again replace the front stabilizer bar bushes, without fail. Ensure that the stabilizer bar end threads protrude out by almost the same dimension on both sides of the control arms. This indirectly determines caster. Don't set caster by this method, set toe only, drive for at least 1000 kms and at least 1 month with spot-on tire pressure, get your own steering feedback on force, centralization, dead feel etc. and then decide whether anything needs to be done, in my opinion, nothing further will be required. The tilt of the steering wheel is the least of your problems. Just remove it and fit it straight. Maruti 800's vehicle integration is excellent, I don't expect anything to happen. You can drive for 10 lakh kilometres. .
4. I have already answered.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 14th March 2016 at 11:42.
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Old 15th March 2016, 00:20   #68
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Default Re: Out of range Caster and Camber values in a Maruti 800

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Shashi - thanks for your PM. My point by point reply is as follows:
1. I am being realistic when I tell you that 99.99% of the "wheel alignment" setups have very questionable calibration.
I am only telling you to take the readings with a pinch of salt.
Being from an engineering background, I always wondered how they calibrate these things. I also asked one or two shop owners, but they were either clueless, or too busy in flaunting their "imported" machinery. After wasting lots and lots of money on hit and trials these mechanics do in the name of alignment, I observed that newer machines and shops gave better results compared to older shops. Also, measurements vary from equipment to equipment. All these hints point in one direction-Calibration!! My worst fear came true after you confirmed this.




Quote:
2. Not required, you are only wasting money. The car's behaviour and the tire wear pattern will talk to you, to enable you to take the correct decision. If the car is used carefully, mainly on good roads, once in 50000 kms is good enough. I used to do Nasik-Mumbai-Nasik every week, now I do Pune-Mumbai-Pune every week, I overtake almost anything that moves, my running is tremendous, I do not remember having adjusted toe even in 1 lakh kilometres. In any case, you can't set anything except toe.
Its the love for the vehicle which forces us to take these steps.
Nevertheless, I will keep this point in mind and won't disturb the setup unless the car really asks for it next time.

Quote:
3. If the original lower arms have covered 3 lakh kilometres and you mentioned that you suffered a small hit in 2003, now after 13 years it is difficult to presume whether damage still exists or not. As a measure of abundant caution, you may replace the lower arms only. Remember, DO NOT remove anything else. Use only OE lower arms (they may be Rane or Talbros make). I had changed the lower arms in my Maruti 800 after 1 lakh 83 thousand kilometres because the dust cover got punctured. Alongwith the control arms, once again replace the front stabilizer bar bushes, without fail. Ensure that the stabilizer bar end threads protrude out by almost the same dimension on both sides of the control arms. This indirectly determines caster. Don't set caster by this method, set toe only, drive for at least 1000 kms and at least 1 month with spot-on tire pressure, get your own steering feedback on force, centralization, dead feel etc. and then decide whether anything needs to be done, in my opinion, nothing further will be required. The tilt of the steering wheel is the least of your problems. Just remove it and fit it straight.
All points duly noted. Thanks for providing the insight. I am not disturbing the car for the time being, as there is no issue with the drive. Got the steering issue rectified and now, there is no complaint. When time comes for changing the lower arms, I will ensure that all your tips are followed to the "T".


Quote:
Maruti 800's vehicle integration is excellent, I don't expect anything to happen. You can drive for 10 lakh kilometres.
This is one statement which truly boosted my morale.

Over the past few days, I have met people with statements like-"800's chassis gets damaged over a period of time", "With 800, you can't expect perfection", etc. I am now sure, this is just their lack of knowledge, which is at play here.

Thanks a lot Sir, for all your guidance and kind words.

Regards,
Shashi
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Old 15th March 2016, 10:31   #69
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Default Re: Out of range Caster and Camber values in a Maruti 800

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leoshashi View Post
Over the past few days, I have met people with statements like, "800's chassis gets damaged over a period of time, with 800, you can't expect perfection", etc. I am now sure, this is just their lack of knowledge, which is at play here. Regards, Shashi
Dear Shashi - as you are also from an engineering background, I thank you for your correct understanding of my simple statements. (I wish such understanding occurs "elsewhere" also, I leave the location of "elsewhere" to you)! .

On "800 chassis getting damaged blah blah", I have also heard such statements not just about the 800 but about other cars as well. The real reason why they spread these rumours is not lack of knowledge, they want to buy the car from you without paying you the money that your car deserves to get. It is simple business.

Remember that the 800 has a front cross member which is bolted to the body by 4 numbers of M10*1.25 size bolts. This cross member locates the front engine mounting, the radiator bottom support, the front stabilizer bar and the front bumper support. Remember this: the reaction to the drive from the half shafts has to be taken by the front stabilizer bar, which provides the critical link of the kinematic 4 bar chain. The lower control arm is located transverse to the car center line and therefore just cannot take the drive reaction on its own. I have seen that in Mumbai's corrosive climate, this cross member corrodes, especially on the left side due to the additional reason of battery electrolyte falling on it. My cousin's car had a gaping hole in it, he never knew. Changing this cross member is a simple matter, but people don't know so other people take advantage and obtain the car cheap.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 15th March 2016, 11:16   #70
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Default Re: Understanding wheel alignment

Shashi, the values are within limit to be honest, I would not worry about the very minor degree in your case of caster and camber being off the mark and to be honest if you checked the same reading on another alignment machine, I am sure you are bound to get different readings for caster and camber.

From the looks of the readings, if the suspension is not making any noise, and if there is no pull, don't touch anything and continue enjoying the car.

From the picture, your car looks like it is supremely well maintained, heck look at your wheel rims, they look like you just brought them brand new.

Keep it up.
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Old 16th March 2016, 16:28   #71
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Default Re: Understanding wheel alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Shashi - as you are also from an engineering background, I thank you for your correct understanding of my simple statements. (I wish such understanding occurs "elsewhere" also, I leave the location of "elsewhere" to you)!


Quote:
On "800 chassis getting damaged blah blah", I have also heard such statements not just about the 800 but about other cars as well. The real reason why they spread these rumours is not lack of knowledge, they want to buy the car from you without paying you the money that your car deserves to get. It is simple business.
Your explanation and reasoning does make sense. The person who said these things had expressed his interest in purchasing my car in the past umpteen number of times.

Quote:
I have seen that in Mumbai's corrosive climate, this cross member corrodes, especially on the left side due to the additional reason of battery electrolyte falling on it. My cousin's car had a gaping hole in it, he never knew. Changing this cross member is a simple matter, but people don't know so other people take advantage and obtain the car cheap.
Yes, that crossmember comes fairly cheap. Its approx Rs.1,300 for the member.

I also noticed surface rust on that member in my car while regular cleaning, and yes, it was on the left. However, I felt it is due to the foam near the radiator which holds water for as long as 3 days. I sanded the surface rust, applied primer, paint and then covered it all with anti-rust. All DIY.

Understanding wheel alignment-20160316_16.05.58.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Shashi, the values are within limit to be honest, I would not worry about the very minor degree in your case of caster and camber being off the mark and to be honest if you checked the same reading on another alignment machine, I am sure you are bound to get different readings for caster and camber.

From the looks of the readings, if the suspension is not making any noise, and if there is no pull, don't touch anything and continue enjoying the car.

Thanks for your comments.
No, there is no issue whatsoever with the car for now, and I have decided to ignore it unless it makes its presence felt.

Quote:
From the picture, your car looks like it is supremely well maintained, heck look at your wheel rims, they look like you just brought them brand new.

Keep it up.
Thanks!!

BTW, the rims are about 9 months old. I changed them all because the stud holes had become a bit wider and I didn't wish to take any risk.

However you are right on the maintenance part- I do love to keep my cars in showroom condition, and this 800 is very close to my heart. Since you specifically mentioned the rims, here is a picture of the wheels a few months before I replaced them with new ones. They came from the factory and lasted for almost 15 years.

Understanding wheel alignment-20141027_130733.jpg


Thanks Dhabar and Rohan Sir, for putting my fears to rest and also enlightening me. Also, special thanks to Moderators who relocated the post to a more proper thread.

Regards,
Shashi

Last edited by Leoshashi : 16th March 2016 at 16:29.
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Old 17th March 2016, 10:35   #72
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Default Re: Understanding wheel alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leoshashi View Post
I also noticed surface rust on the cross member in my car and yes, it was on the left. However, I felt it is due to the foam near the radiator which holds water for as long as 3 days.
Dear Shashi - thanks, I learnt something new from you, for which I am grateful to you, I had not realized this.

Let me tell you something about the "foam"! The fan pulls air through the radiator. The unit of measurement is mass flow in cubic meters per second. Reverse flow of air is not good as it creates eddies. Due to the micro-pressure differential in this area, reverse flow tends to take place. The foam is the member which blocks the path of reverse flow. In TD test (in R&D, we call it temperature difference or delta-T) maximum effectiveness on TD due to eddies prevention is around 2 degrees. I remember that I had actually removed this foam from my 1987 model bayer cream (biscuit) colored Maruti 800 Deluxe with OE fitted AC and original leather seats BLB6986 when I introduced the degassing tank in it in place of the surge tank. My coolant capacity had increased by 900 cc and the thermostat was there in any case to monitor the TD perfectly.

I sold BLB6986 in 2002 after covering almost 2 lakh kilometres and I was very unhappy about it. So I did something. Sorry to go a little OT, around 6 months back I have purchased this, again 1987 model, single lady owner, Mumbai registration and run for only 40000 kms in 29 years! This is the photograph I took on the day I bought it. I'll never sell it. .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 3rd April 2016, 19:58   #73
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Default Re: Understanding wheel alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
So I did something. Sorry to go a little OT, around 6 months back I have purchased this, again 1987 model, single lady owner, Mumbai registration and run for only 40000 kms in 29 years! This is the photograph I took on the day I bought it. I'll never sell it. .
Dear Sir,
You have acquired a very neat looking car, Congratulations!! It is flawless and looks pristine, except for the badges on the boot. I guess it still has the original paint??



Some query regarding my car- I own a 1992 model M800 which has been restored recently. We had purchased it brand new in 1992, drove it till 2002, after which we sold it to one of our relatives. The car was abused for about 10 years, and it was on the verge of getting scrapped when we bought it back.

The front right wheel has excessive negative camber. Even when its parked, the inward tilt is clearly visible. When its driven, and if someone is driving behind it, the lower half of the front wheels aren't in the same line as the rear wheels. When the car encounters a turn, for example on a Ghat section, the wheels bend so much that it appears as if it is going to break apart.

We are unsure about which part is causing this.

Some observations-
  • There is no uneven wear of tyres.
  • There is no pull due to this.
  • If the car is raised on a jack, the wheels become straight. After lowering it down, the wheels still remain straight. But one after one ride, the wheels become tilted again.
  • My SA has noted that the front right knuckle is faulty, has increased hole diameter, and sometimes creates a THUD sound when going over potholes.
  • The right knuckle surely is faulty, but will it cause this issue?? Some mechanics are doubting the front struts too.
  • The car has been tinkered at some places to remove rust. Can the improper measurements while welding cause this??

Kindly Notice the excessive negative camber of the front wheels.
Understanding wheel alignment-20150224_113809.jpg
Kindly notice how the front wheel appears to have shifted outside compared to the rear wheels. It appears more in real life.
Understanding wheel alignment-20160220_143108.jpg

Regards,
Sumit
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Old 27th April 2016, 11:07   #74
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Exclamation Re: Understanding wheel alignment - negative camber

Hello all

Hope I am posting in the right thread. I am also trying to understand wheel alignment. Here is my problem

I have a Bolero. The rear wheels has a slight negative camber. The inner side of the tyres are getting worn on both wheels evenly. When I consulted Mahindra ASC they told me that after years of usage the rear leaf springs have become flat. Which I agree because I have also loaded heavy material occasionally on my Bolero.

The rear leaf springs were hammered (cambering by hand) and bought to original shape . Earlier the gap between wheels and body (wheel arch area) was less. Now the gaps looks OK. So I guess the leaf springs are OK now. But slight negative cambering of the wheels still exist.

Then I consulted my regular wheel alignment to look into the problem. They without checking told me there is no problem and no alignment can be /need to be done in rear wheels with fixed axle. Which I found hard to believe. They are not knowledgeable but not ready to admit it

My tyres are also due for change.

Has anyone faced similar problem as in + / - cambering in rear wheels with fixed axle?

If yes - where did fix it in Bangalore?

Should I fix the problem and then change the tyre or vice versa?
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Old 27th April 2016, 14:15   #75
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Default Re: Understanding wheel alignment

Can the camber of rear wheels of small cars be adjusted? By small cars, I mean hatchbacks like Alto, Wagon R, Spark and the likes. I am facing positive camber on both the rear tyres of my Wagon R. I have tried WB-WA twice but I feel the problem persists, though reduced. I had a word with the service personnel attending my car at MASS and he said positive camber can't be adjusted in the rear. And, the only cause for such a problem can be deformation due to accident or damage to hitting a big pothole or boulder.
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