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Old 18th October 2007, 16:20   #1
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Default Can ABS without mods be used for traction control?

The more modern traction controls use the braking to reduce the wheel spin, so in that perspective, do these new cars use only the ABS mechanism to provide traction control?

I searched the net, and this is all I could get related to this --

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Typically, the Traction Control system shares the brake actuator and the wheel speed sensors with the anti-lock braking system
So, in a car with ABS and EBD, isn't it possible to provide traction control by applying ABS differentially? Say, in a Civic? Is there any technical limitation or is it just the feature cost that is preventing manufacturers like Honda not providing it as an option?
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Old 18th October 2007, 18:30   #2
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i remember having said something similar in another thread...... you basically need sensors in the wheels and a smart computer on-boards and your pretty much covered with ABS, EBD, TC etc etc.

i guess we dont get that because of the added cost. and also traction control i guess works only well with a drive by wire throttle and a limited-slip differential. basically its about keeping the power going to the wheels under check to aviod understeer or oversteer.

an ABS equipped car would have a computer which takes care of the braking based on the inputs from the wheel sensors...... same is the case with EBD where the entire system is only to do with the braking system of the car. but when you bring traction control into the picture you'l have the computer limiting the revvs on the engine so that the wheels recieve maximum power that they can use without understeering or over steering.

i maybe wrong..... i'm just taking a stab at it. we should wait for the experts to show up!
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Old 18th October 2007, 18:32   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by determinus View Post
The more modern traction controls use the braking to reduce the wheel spin, so in that perspective, do these new cars use only the ABS mechanism to provide traction control?
Traction controls do modulate braking, but they do not apply full load/pressure like the ABS.

Quote:

I searched the net, and this is all I could get related to this --

So, in a car with ABS and EBD, isn't it possible to provide traction control by applying ABS differentially? Say, in a Civic? Is there any technical limitation or is it just the feature cost that is preventing manufacturers like Honda not providing it as an option?
ABS just applies and releases the brakes, its like an on-off switch.. To get a traction control system to work engine power modulation (along with braking) is necessary.
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Old 18th October 2007, 18:34   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdkarthik View Post
Traction controls do modulate braking, but they do not apply full load/pressure like the ABS.



ABS just applies and releases the brakes, its like an on-off switch.. To get a traction control system to work engine power modulation (along with braking) is necessary.
looks like u posted right after me karthik..... anyway i guess thats precisely it. very well put.
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Old 18th October 2007, 19:20   #5
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@flipsyde/rdkarthik

Yes, I get your points. What got me interested was the ANY part in the section below (source:wikipedia).

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A traction control system (TCS), on current production vehicles, are typically (but not necessarily) electro-hydraulic systems designed to prevent loss of traction (and therefore the control of the vehicle) when excessive throttle or steering is applied by the driver. Although similar to Electronic Stability Control systems, Traction Control systems do not have the same goal.


The intervention can consist of any, or all, of the following:
  • Retard or suppress the spark to one or more cylinders
  • Reduce fuel supply to one or more cylinders
  • Brake one or more wheels
  • Close the throttle, if the vehicle is fitted with drive by wire throttle.
  • In turbo-charged vehicles, the boost control solenoid can be actuated to reduce boost and therefore engine power.
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Old 18th October 2007, 20:00   #6
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Quote:
The more modern traction controls use the braking to reduce the wheel spin, so in that perspective, do these new cars use only the ABS mechanism to provide traction control?
While ABS prevents the wheels from locking, TCS prevents the wheels from spinning.

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Old 19th October 2007, 00:29   #7
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I understand that the tc not only brakes the wheels but does other things as well but how are electronic stability control and traction control different.
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Old 19th October 2007, 00:49   #8
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Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
While ABS prevents the wheels from locking, TCS prevents the wheels from spinning.

Shan2nu
That's more like launch control. TCS and ESP will also prevent your car from spinning out.
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Old 19th October 2007, 01:25   #9
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Quote:
That's more like launch control. TCS and ESP will also prevent your car from spinning out.
Ofcourse.....

When TCS prevents the wheels from spinning while you're hammer it out of a tight corner, you avoid a spin out.

ESP on the other hand is an advanced version of TCS. It's a combo of ABS TCS and Yaw control.

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Old 19th October 2007, 01:34   #10
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How do front wheels spinning out of a corner lead to a spin-out?
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Old 19th October 2007, 01:35   #11
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I think F1 is gonna scrap TCS for the 2008 season. It'l be interesting to see how the drivers cope up with this (especially in a wet race).

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Old 19th October 2007, 01:41   #12
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Quote:
How do front wheels spinning out of a corner lead to a spin-out?
U tell me man, you're the more experienced one. I tried spinning out on an FF, just couldn't do it.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 19th October 2007 at 01:46.
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Old 19th October 2007, 02:06   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Ofcourse.....

When TCS prevents the wheels from spinning while you're hammer it out of a tight corner, you avoid a spin out.

ESP on the other hand is an advanced version of TCS. It's a combo of ABS TCS and Yaw control.

Shan2nu
Quote:
Originally Posted by v1p3r View Post
How do front wheels spinning out of a corner lead to a spin-out?
I guess he was referring to a RWD car. On a FF car (adequately powered, I must add) without ESP and LSD will lead to understeer since the inside wheel will be spinning (and not steering) coz it has less distance to travel than the outside wheel but is getting the same amount of torque. The ESP will sense this and distribute torque evenly.
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Old 19th October 2007, 02:16   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
U tell me man, you're the more experienced one. I tried spinning out on an FF, just couldn't do it.

Shan2nu
You need to drive faster cars. And give a lot of sudden steering input, while decelerating more than required, at a rapid rate. But faster cars, that's the main thing.
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Old 19th October 2007, 02:29   #15
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Quote:
You need to drive faster cars. And give a lot of sudden steering input, while decelerating more than required, at a rapid rate.
You need ESP to get you out of that mess. TCS alone won't be sufficient. TCS works best when there's throttle input and the moment you give throttle, you're gonna start understeering again.

If TCS could do all that, you wouldn't need ESP.

Quote:
But faster cars, that's the main thing.
That was never a prob.....it still isn't.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 19th October 2007 at 02:31.
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