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Old 11th November 2007, 14:42   #1
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Default No-Win Diesels

The main reason why I dislike diesels. If a timing belt snaps in petrol car, all you need is replace the timing belt which may cost Rs.800/- to Rs. 2,000/-. If the timing belt of a diesel car snaps ( any diesel—CRD or not ) , it results in bent valves, bent camshaft, broken / bent con-rods , blown engine-head, blown gasket and spoilt pistons. That means near complete engine build in addition to the cost of timing belt. A friend’s Ikon diesel with a broken timing belt ran a bill of Rs.90.000/- and another’s Octavia ran a bill of Rs.2.5 lakhs. A petrol car with a snapped timing belt may cost you no more than Rs.2,000/- for most petrol cars. So all the money you save on fuel costs in a diesel car evaporates if your timing belt snaps. In fact, petrol cars would work out cheaper here. To be on the safe side , most diesel car owners change timing belt before their due mileage of 50,000 to 60,000 kms but some times the belt snaps are known to snap even before you do that. Heaven help you if that happens.

Everyone seems to be going gaga over Common Rail Diesels these days. CRDis engines are only good for 60 -70,000 kms. After this pick up and mileage drop considerably, the car emits thick black smoke and it’s time for engine re-bore which costs Rs. 60,000/- to Rs.2 lakhs depending on the make of car. I have seen this in many Accent CRDis. Even after re-bore, the engine does not perform like it did when it was new. Compare that to a petrol car’s bullet proof 3 lakh km life. A mech I know tells me that even non-CRDi diesels engines like that of Lancer lasts nearly 3 lakh kms albeit it is not known for performance. He says if you are rich enough to change a car every 50,000 kms then you can go ahead and buy a CRDi. The reason why we see so many used Accents and Fiestas are up for sale with odo reading around 50- 60,000 kms.

Other problem with diesel cars is the hard clutch to start with. With passage of time it gets so hard that it may give you varicose veins. After a 30 km intra-city stop and go traffic, you will end up nursing your left calf muscles.

Last edited by GTO : 11th November 2007 at 17:25. Reason: Removed FONT tags. Please dont cut-copy-paste from other word processors. Thanks
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Old 11th November 2007, 17:34   #2
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Hi pgsagar,

Since I am a diesel lover and a crdi owner, let me address some issues in your post:

1. Common-rails are pretty high tech compared to old school diesels, and will naturally require more precise maintainence schedules. As long as you adhere to a strict service / upkeep regine, you shouldnt have any problems. If the timing belt is replaced as per the manufacturer recommendations, a common-rail diesel owner shouldnt face the huge engine rebuild bill you have stated. However, complexity requires additional precaution. For instance, a common-rail is more sensitive to adulterated fuel than a normal IDI / DI diesel.

2. Common-rails have a far longer healthy life than only 70,000 kms. Again, regular maintainence is key here and I dont see any reason for an engine to not last 1,50,000 - 2,00,000 kms. That said, I do hear that the pump overall costs are pretty high for a modern diesel.

3. Not all diesels have a hard clutch. Some do, due to the heavy duty clutch that is required to cope with the additional torque. But most diesel hatches / sedans that are available today have user friendly clutch pedals.

Just like the critics of common-rail diesels, so also there were critics of fuel-injection systems (in favour of carbs). Common-rails are a huge step ahead....no two sides to that! The more-informed customers of today dont buy a modern diesel for the economy alone; they do so for the superior driveablity, robustness and load-carrying capacity.

Last edited by GTO : 11th November 2007 at 17:40.
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Old 11th November 2007, 18:30   #3
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In would slightly change the title as WIN-WIN Diesel. Due to various factors listed below -

1. Timing belt - proper maintenance is a must whether it is a Diesel or a Petrol car. If the belt breaks it means a heavy cost to break fix. ( I am not sure where pgsagar came with a figure of 2000 for Petrol cars.). Now a days some cars do come with Timing chain and chances of these failing are way lower than the belt.

2. Folks need to experience CRDI or DDIS to get the real meaning of Torque. As the saying goes " You pay for Power but drive Torque". The ease at which the modern day diesel cars cruise or accelerate from 30-80 or 40-100 is amazing.

3. Maintenance - Whether it is Petrol or Diesel cars are breakdown maintenance heavy if you don't take enough precaution on preventive maintenance.

4. Durability - Diesel engines (Including CRDIs) world over are much more durable than their petrol counterparts. This has been proven time and again by VW/Volvo/FIAT owners
world over.

5. Needless to say TCO (total cost of ownership) for Diesel cars are lower than petrol if one drives more than 15000 km a year and holds on to the car for more than 4 years.



Top 5 factors easily outweigh all other disadvantages (if any) of modern day Diesel cars.
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Old 11th November 2007, 18:47   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post
1. Timing belt - proper maintenance is a must whether it is a Diesel or a Petrol car. If the belt breaks it means a heavy cost to break fix. ( I am not sure where pgsagar came with a figure of 2000 for Petrol cars.). Now a days some cars do come with Timing chain and chances of these failing are way lower than the belt.
No damage happens in the so called "non-interference" engines. I have often wondered why all the engines are not "non-interference" engines.

I love diesels. As the engine displacement gets higher, diesel gets more compelling. Of course, it is becoming compelling even for smaller cars as technology advances.

EDIT: Yahoo! Answers - Why do they even make interference engines?

Last edited by androdev : 11th November 2007 at 18:57.
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Old 11th November 2007, 20:55   #5
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From where did you get these laughable quotes? Ask those dieselers who have done 1.5 lakh kms and + traversing the length & breadth of Indian roads without a problem..

Kumar Sir, your response is solicited..

Post edited by the Team-BHP Support : Please do not quote the entire 20 line post in your replies. THanks

Last edited by GTO : 12th November 2007 at 09:49.
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Old 11th November 2007, 21:57   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
The main reason why I dislike diesels. If a timing belt snaps in petrol car, all you need is replace the timing belt which may cost Rs.800/- to Rs. 2,000/-. If the timing belt of a diesel car snaps ( any diesel—CRD or not ) , it results in bent valves, bent camshaft, broken / bent con-rods , blown engine-head, blown gasket and spoilt pistons. .
You have been grossly mis informed my friend. All interference engines will have damage if the timing belt snaps. Whether diesel or petrol.

And for your information, all the modern petrol engines with 4 valves per cylinder are interference engines. So, if you snap a belt on any modern petrol engine with more than 2 valves per cylinder be prepared for the worst.
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Old 11th November 2007, 22:20   #7
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so would the conclusion be,
its safe to use the crdi for a long time or
its not very safe please sell the car by the time it does 60000kms on the odo meter.

guys please conclude.
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Old 11th November 2007, 22:32   #8
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Where did you get that info from anyway? Have you not heard of Octavias which run for like 2 lac kilometers (and much more) without any problems?
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Old 11th November 2007, 22:46   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
If the timing belt of a diesel car snaps ( any diesel—CRD or not ) , it results in bent valves, bent camshaft, broken / bent con-rods , blown engine-head, blown gasket and spoilt pistons.
Won't the same happen for a Petrol car. Isn't the timing belt doing the same thing in Petrol engine as in Diesel engine?

I do understand due to the higher compression ratios on a Diesel, the damages are bound to be higher
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Old 11th November 2007, 23:00   #10
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Mr.pgsagar,you are totally wrong my dear friend.My octavia done 90000kms without any problems and i dont know whether you read it or not in overdrive or in autocar india that a skoda octavia done 6,00000kms without opening the engine.What do you say buddy?You are totally misinformed.

Last edited by jerish666 : 11th November 2007 at 23:01.
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Old 11th November 2007, 23:14   #11
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@ pgsagar,

I have a 1999 Diesel Lancer which has done 240k Kms and besides regular servicing and change of parts at necessary intervals, i havent paid anything extra.

I happen to have a Skoda Octavia 2005 which has done 110k Kms and whatever i said above stands true with this car too.

Recently i got Swift Diesel and i find the clutch to be very very light, even though the car is immensely torquey. I suggest you TD the diesel swift and then pass comments about modern diesel cars with heavy clutch.

With all due respect, have you ever owned a diesel car that you are jumping to such conclusions ?

Dont get me wrong but what others said is true, timely servicing and taking good care of any car, petrol or diesel keeps you away from major repairs.
I have done exactly that, followed a strict, timely service schedule and the results are infront of you.

Also here is some food for thought,
If Diesel cars were so problematic and such a pain in general, why did Car Makers world over pursue research in Diesel engines, only to come up with beautiful technologies like CRDi and all ? Even though these technologies were developed, its finally in the hands of the customers to make it a hit or miss, since they are so successful, just goes to show, people world over have accepted these technologies.What does this indicate ?
Also FYI, the incredible Fiat Multijet Engine doing duty in Swift diesel and supposed to do in many cars in the near future, has been a winner of 'Engine of the year award' in Europe.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Amey : 11th November 2007 at 23:20.
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Old 12th November 2007, 00:09   #12
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Dude timing belt = hairband for u ? that i ll snap anytime?change it on time and ur on your way.Diesel or petrol.Period
And about petrol cars running 3 lakh kilometers.Mention an indian petrol car running 3 lakh kilometers without any overhaul?Ofcourse there are exceptions but 3 lakh kilometers without an overhaul in indian conditons = 95% of the time not possible.
and on the same case in diesel cars 90% of the time run more than 2 lakh kilometers with an ok ok maintance and will cross the 3 lakh mark too with good maintance.
Qualis/octavias/indicas bla bla..all run like there is no end for them
And about diesels having a hard clutch.Have u tried the swift diesel?fiesta diesel,verna crdi ?

Last edited by humyum : 12th November 2007 at 00:10.
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:20   #13
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As far as I know the Swift has a timing chain as compared to belts in other CRDi cars. That attibutes to the noise, but is definately long lasting.

When I asked about the noise after a test drive, a Maruti service guy who was close by said no replacement of the chain in the engine life. Is that true??
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:31   #14
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Regarding timing belt, only broken one I have seen till now was of one Indica cab, 2003 model, broke away after 120K KM. now who should you blame.

I have Indica Diesel 2002, 89.1K Km done, you are more than welcome to come and see the, clutch, pickup and mileage.

BTW clutch getting hard, has nothing to do with diesel or petrol car. It more attributed to how much gear change and clutch drive. You may have to do it more in diesel car, but not on the new gen CRDIs or Common Rail engines

Last edited by rkbharat : 12th November 2007 at 09:33.
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Old 12th November 2007, 09:57   #15
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my cousin has completed 2 Lakh KMs on his Scorpio and thats not even the CDRe one and no problems at all

so i dont buy this

treat a car like a baby and it will treat you like a king

and never heard that diesels are not reliable.
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