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Old 14th October 2008, 15:43   #31
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On initial reading, it looks like they have provided most of the info, but the cost is about $1000. They started out saying that they were a H2 generator system, but in the end they say that it was not possible, so instead they are using it as a fuel-enricher system. $1000 for a fuel-enricher is too much. There are cheaper options available.

EDIT: That site is also an affiliate site. It is not, I repeat, NOT a technical info site. The info they provide may or may not work.

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Old 20th October 2008, 10:29   #32
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Arrow My 2004 "Wagon R" runs partially on water

[FONT=Verdana]Guys I have been working on converting my cars to run of water (aka hydrogen) for some years and have successfully converted a few since. At present my Wagon R runs on 35% Hydrogen and 65% Petrol. The trick here is not just of being able to produce on-demand Hydrogen !!. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]If more hydrogen is produced, knocking may occur and if you are not interested to modify your car's originality, as is the case with me, This theory works much more easily with old (pre-2000 era) cars where it was much easier to retard the ignition by turning the distributor to your favour. However, the post 2000 cars have OBD1 (the world standard is now OBDII - computers), that do not allow us to directly modify the ignition hence there is much more to do with inter-electronics now. I have made several designs of Map sensors and EFIE sensors which work pretty sweet. However my theory is not run the car completely on water but partially on water as I am not interested in any kind of storage of hydrogen in the car. Guys - Safety is first !![/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]I would be writing more on this thread if there are folks interested in this technology.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Bottom line is, as long as your common sense is in place, this is perfectly safe and extremely environment friendly and what more, it give more power than the conventional hydrocarbon fuels . (The water tank in my car is just about 1.25 ltrs) and I change water every Sunday (after approx 200km).[/FONT]

Anjeel Babbar
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Old 20th October 2008, 12:19   #33
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Hey Anjeel,

I have M800. Can I use your technique? I don't have any technical knowldege.
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Old 20th October 2008, 13:07   #34
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I am based out in Delhi and cannot physically support your car's conversion in mumbai. However you can always write to me for support needed

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Old 21st October 2008, 07:33   #35
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anjeel-
welcome to team bhp.
pics and details of materials used will be much appreciated.
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Old 21st October 2008, 10:09   #36
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Anjeel, welcome to Team-BHP May I ask you a few questions?
  • Have you tried running the engine fully on Hydrogen? If not, why?
  • You mention water and Hydrogen. Are you injecting water into the engine or are you splitting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen and then using that as fuel?

If you are splitting the water then the following are for that only
  • Are you using the stock alternator in the car to power the splitting?
  • What voltage and current do you use?

Thanks a lot

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Old 21st October 2008, 10:25   #37
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It is so frustrating. I can explain a lot of these questions using pictures and drawings, As a new user I am unable to do this due to restricted rights. Once this is sorted out with the administrator, I will upload drawing and pictures.

Now as regards using HHO completely without petrol. Guys this is like a dream as of today. And practically 100% hho is not possible unless you modify the engine. Without modifying you can go as high as 65%HHO and 35% Petrol. In my case I use 35%HHO and 65% Petrol.

The reason why, without modification you cannot run 100% on HHO is explained hereunder. I will try to make this explanation as simple as I can.

In a conventional petrol Engine (Ofcouse you can convert a diesel vehicle also but we will keep that as a seperate thread), for evey two revolution of the crank shaft a single spark is ignited. This is achieved once the fuel is compressed. Now, the spark actually takes place before the piston reaches the top dead centre of the cylinder. In a conventional petrol engine, this spark is fired about 8-18 degrees before the piston reaches the TDC. This is taking into account the calorific value of the fuel being used. THe octane rating of Petrol is such that, by the time the flame actually progresses and combustion takes places inside the engine, the piston has alread passed the TDC and thus pushes the crank downwards making the crank to rotate.

Now when HHO is injected into the cylinder this combustion is much much more faster than petorl combustion, therefore the mixture of air + HHO + Petrol now ignites much more quickly and if more HHO is in place, it may even happen even before the piston reaches TDC, This may result in knocking. Hence you need to retard the engine so that the spark takes place after the piston has passed the TDC.

The reason it is difficult to do in OBD Class I or II vehicle is because this control of the firing of sparks is done using computers in mordern cars. Hence you need to alter the computer singnals so as to achive this retard result. IN old cars you can just turn the distributor and reterd it (remember the good old days when the mechanic used to flash a timing light on one side of the engine). IN modern cars electronic circuits have to be placed or some form of mechanical device need to be installed to do this job.

Now as reagards how much wattage I use. As I said, I have developed a state ofthe art PWM unit that develops 500watts of running power and can be tuned upto 2500 watts. Remember anything less than 3lts / min is not enough to give you dramatic results.

Hope this helps.

Anjeel Babbar
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Old 21st October 2008, 11:40   #38
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Default Parts of the HHO kit

Guys can we have a single thread on this subject. It is frustrating to write the same stuff in two threads. Adminstrator Please make a note of this.

let us breakdown the parts of the kit as follows

1) The HHO generator: The correct design of this must be fabricated using Stainless Steel and tested to run under pressure. The running pressure of HHO Gen is under 25 PSI max but I usually test it at 250 PSI. Do not try to use plastic cans / pipes bottles etc. You will be dealing with a potentially lethal gas.

2) The Fuel Cell. You may have a dry cell or wet cell. I have yet to test my hands on a dry cell as yet, but the wet cell have 7-23 plates depending upon how much HHO you want to generate. The material used for the fuel cell is best when it is an alloy of SS, Manganse, Carbon, nickel, etc. I use 0.03% Carbon, 1-2.5% Manganese, 0.30-0.65% Silicon, 18-20% Chrominum, 11-14% Nickel, 2 - 3% Molybdenum. This is quite close to the 316L config we can get in India. Jindal produces this alloy in India. Thickness of approx 1 mm, a sheet of 4x8 ft can cost you around Rs 6000/-. Alternately you can also use SS316 or 304 wires (These are the same wires that are used by MIG Welders (Ask the local welding wala next door to give you some samples)

3) Safety Devices: I Use two sets of bubblers, one near the generator and one near the intake. In addition to this I also use Flash arrestors just before the intake bubbler. All that put together makes 3 safety devices. (Guys this is extremely important a step to take into consideration). In addition to this I also use blow off vales, one way valves etc.

4) Inter-Electronics. This is the most important part. My experience of most PWMs and circuits available on EBay and like sites is waste of money and time. Conventionally If you have a direct current supplied to the HHO Generator, it will not produce enough HHO and not good to get the right performance. You have five things to take care from here on:

4a. Design a state of the art PWM or alternate circuit and send a calculated frequency to resonate the HHO plates so as to generate the correct amount of gas. You may also want to use square wave oscillators for this.

4b. Magnetically align the Fuel cell so that HHO does not stick to the plates and enough gas is produced.

4c. Wattage is the key here. If you use 12volts (or say 13.5v) and 7 amps, this is peanuts to generate the gas and your unit will always under perform. This amounts to less than 100 watts of energy. You need a state of the art PWM / electronics that must be able to run at upto 2500watts and be careful with the design not to blow off the alternator or battery. Anything about 500watts will produce enough gas.

4d. Once you have enough gas you need to retard the engine. Our engines are designed for Petrol and not HHO. The efficiency of HHO is almost 1800 times more than Petrol and combustion will happen much more quickly and hence the need to retard the engine. In the modern cars this is quite a trick and has to be discussed on case to case basis.

4e. Once all the above is working fine, you need to cut down the petrol supply by an amount that is equal to the amount of gas your unit is able to produce. Again this is an electronic design. You will need to modify the signals that are sent to the car computer and vise versa. You need to design Map sensors (Manifold inlet air pressure control device) and also alter the signal coming from the Oxygen sensors to the on board computers.

Once all the above is done, you are all set to go.

Lastly for a good kit, that I feel is safe to use with Indian cars, and Indian road conditions, your cost may go up as high as 25K or even more. However if these kits are mass produced the cost can come down, the statistics is something that I have not worked on as yet.

I do not believe in patents and I am not a shop to sell things. I am an engineer and work on open source codes. I have invested almost 7 years in this technology and still believe I have yet a lot to learn, and my job as an engineer is to work on technology and not on commercial reasons. I am here to share my experience and to gain from the experience of others for the benefit of all and for the cause of the environment.

Anjeel Babbar

Some info compiled on HHO gas is hereunder. Much of the questions asked are already answered here:
Anjeel, hydrogen powered, run your car on water, run your generator on water, boost vehicle performance, more power, save fuel, conserver energy
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Old 21st October 2008, 12:20   #39
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Default For carburator model car

Anjeel, As you mentioned euro II and old model will be easy to adjust the spark timing. I have esteem 1999 model car is it possible to use 100 % HHO fuel cell for transportation.

could you pl. give your mail id to contact ?
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Old 21st October 2008, 13:50   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjeel View Post
Guys can we have a single thread on this subject. It is frustrating to write the same stuff in two threads. Adminstrator Please make a note of this.

let us breakdown the parts of the kit as follows

1) The HHO generator: The correct design of this must be fabricated using Stainless Steel and tested to run under pressure. The running pressure of HHO Gen is under 25 PSI max but I usually test it at 250 PSI. Do not try to use plastic cans / pipes bottles etc. You will be dealing with a potentially lethal gas.

2) The Fuel Cell. You may have a dry cell or wet cell. I have yet to test my hands on a dry cell as yet, but the wet cell have 7-23 plates depending upon how much HHO you want to generate. The material used for the fuel cell is best when it is an alloy of SS, Manganse, Carbon, nickel, etc. I use 0.03% Carbon, 1-2.5% Manganese, 0.30-0.65% Silicon, 18-20% Chrominum, 11-14% Nickel, 2 - 3% Molybdenum. This is quite close to the 316L config we can get in India. Jindal produces this alloy in India. Thickness of approx 1 mm, a sheet of 4x8 ft can cost you around Rs 6000/-. Alternately you can also use SS316 or 304 wires (These are the same wires that are used by MIG Welders (Ask the local welding wala next door to give you some samples)

3) Safety Devices: I Use two sets of bubblers, one near the generator and one near the intake. In addition to this I also use Flash arrestors just before the intake bubbler. All that put together makes 3 safety devices. (Guys this is extremely important a step to take into consideration). In addition to this I also use blow off vales, one way valves etc.

4) Inter-Electronics. This is the most important part. My experience of most PWMs and circuits available on EBay and like sites is waste of money and time. Conventionally If you have a direct current supplied to the HHO Generator, it will not produce enough HHO and not good to get the right performance. You have five things to take care from here on:

4a. Design a state of the art PWM or alternate circuit and send a calculated frequency to resonate the HHO plates so as to generate the correct amount of gas. You may also want to use square wave oscillators for this.

4b. Magnetically align the Fuel cell so that HHO does not stick to the plates and enough gas is produced.

4c. Wattage is the key here. If you use 12volts (or say 13.5v) and 7 amps, this is peanuts to generate the gas and your unit will always under perform. This amounts to less than 100 watts of energy. You need a state of the art PWM / electronics that must be able to run at upto 2500watts and be careful with the design not to blow off the alternator or battery. Anything about 500watts will produce enough gas.

4d. Once you have enough gas you need to retard the engine. Our engines are designed for Petrol and not HHO. The efficiency of HHO is almost 1800 times more than Petrol and combustion will happen much more quickly and hence the need to retard the engine. In the modern cars this is quite a trick and has to be discussed on case to case basis.

4e. Once all the above is working fine, you need to cut down the petrol supply by an amount that is equal to the amount of gas your unit is able to produce. Again this is an electronic design. You will need to modify the signals that are sent to the car computer and vise versa. You need to design Map sensors (Manifold inlet air pressure control device) and also alter the signal coming from the Oxygen sensors to the on board computers.

Once all the above is done, you are all set to go.

Lastly for a good kit, that I feel is safe to use with Indian cars, and Indian road conditions, your cost may go up as high as 25K or even more. However if these kits are mass produced the cost can come down, the statistics is something that I have not worked on as yet.

I do not believe in patents and I am not a shop to sell things. I am an engineer and work on open source codes. I have invested almost 7 years in this technology and still believe I have yet a lot to learn, and my job as an engineer is to work on technology and not on commercial reasons. I am here to share my experience and to gain from the experience of others for the benefit of all and for the cause of the environment.

Anjeel Babbar

Some info compiled on HHO gas is hereunder. Much of the questions asked are already answered here:
Anjeel, hydrogen powered, run your car on water, run your generator on water, boost vehicle performance, more power, save fuel, conserver energy

Explanation has been very clear, and I think if I can understand that anybody else can do. But I have two catches.

Is there any way that we can store the gas in tanks like CNG tanks which can take high pressures?

So that we can use A/C current to produce it, and dump it into car.

My words sound easy, and I am sure I understand the complexity of that. But its sure safer to have one full time Gas converter which can keep dumping gas, and safely serve several car. I am thinking about a bigger picture.

Next is retarding the timing of the ignition, and handling all signals. I dont think its a very big deal with 3 gen engines. If we can store the gas in tank, and we can have a parallel ECU to handle signals, and have Timing retarders done.

This whole project sounds to be very interesting. I am so curious to look at the whole setup in person. Can I have a look at it if I happen to visit Delhi?
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Old 21st October 2008, 14:17   #41
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you are welcome to have a look at my yard and the experiments I do. Thanks for that, and I treat that as an appreciation.

Now as regads storing of HHO. As engineers we are made to think the worst case scenerios and not an idle situation. When we design we are supposed to keep in mind the stupidest use of the equipment with maximum abuse possible. Consider the following now:

1) The energy content of Petrol is approx 47Kilo Joules / gram by weight. When compared to HHO it is 141 KJ/gm.

2) The flamability range of HHO is 75% as compared to 6% in case of Petrol

3) The octane rating of HHO is 130+ (and this is considering a lean mix), the same for petrol is 87-93

4) Ignition energy of HHO is far higher than Petrol

5) The burning speed of the HHO flame is much higher than Petrol, and to make matter worse, when HHO burns it is invisible

6) Gasoline or Petrol as we more commonly understand it in India, is composed of a mixture of many different hydro-carbons, but an important constituent is heptane (C7H16). Others like LPG/CNG/Ethenol/Methenol etc are even less volatile when compared to Petrol. HHO will expand almost 1800 times more than Gasoline / Petrol

In light of all the above consider if you store a tank of 15KG of Hydrogen in the boot of your car and if your safety devices do not work correctly and in case of failure, a simple example of the devestation would something beyond any engineer's imagination, hence no sensible engineer would ever want to store Hydrogen on board (Unless it is a 3 million dollars worth of Honda ). The cost of safety equipement for the storage of Hydrogen would be so prohibitive that its cost will be several times higher than the cost of several cars and the whole purpose of economy is defeated.

The idea here is to present a technology that complements fuel effeciency by adding just about a bit more and improve upon the economy and yet have a car that is sooooooo smooooth that it feels as if you are gliding a knife on butter. The drive is unimaginally smooth. And the feel of power makes you feel good.

BOTTOM LINE, Do not be greedy, never compromise on safety.

Hope this helps answer some questions

ANJEEL BABBAR
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Old 21st October 2008, 15:52   #42
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Thanks for the patient answer.

Makes clear sense. As per my understanding it should escape very fast. But invisibly inflammability is scary.

but I think other challenges can be addressed.

Ignition timing by a Timing retarder.

Fuel transformation, with tweak in MAP, Lamda and other require sensors with a standalone parallel ECU.

I have used Sequential CNG kit which had such a ECU to switch car from petrol to CNG, pumping CNG to intake manfold through injectors, and handling other signals.

BTW I missed an important question.

Whats effect on performance. As per my understanding 130+ Octane should produce better performance on proper timing of ignition.

Please correct me if I am wrong, I can be dangerous having half information, please bare some of my simple questions.

I think the maximum members are like me, ,and small amount of GURU's like you.
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Old 21st October 2008, 17:50   #43
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Default Why not have a HYDROGEN TANK in the car:

As I also mentioned in my blog, for small hydrogen leaks, buoyancy and diffusion effects in air are often overshadowed by the presence of air currents from a slight ambient wind, very slow vehicle motion or even the turbulence from the radiator fan. In general, these wind currents serve to disperse leaked hydrogen even more quickly with a further reduction of any associated fire hazard.

However, When hydrogen (or HHO) is stored in pressurized tanks, and if desired to be used as a fuel, the propensity for hydrogen to leak necessitates special care in the design of the fuel system to ensure that any leaks can disperse with minimum hindrance, and the use of dedicated leak detection equipment on the vehicle and within the maintenance facility.

A tank for this purpose will have to be much more stronger than the one which is used for CNG and of a considerable size. Read below to see what should be the size of the tank you will have to eventually make.

Let us take five fuels as an examples here, Diesel, Petrol, Propane (industrial version of LPG), CNG and HHO

The energy density of respective fuels are as under: Let us take its state as liquid in all examples for the sake of comparison here.

Diesel: 843,700 BTU/Cubic Feet (As liquid)
Gasoline/Petrol: 836,000 BTU/cubic feet (As liquid)
Propane: 630,400 BTU/Cubic Feet (as Liquid)
CNG: 561,500 BTU/Cubic Feet (As Liquid)
Hydrogen (HHO): 227,850 BTU/Cubic Feet (As Liquid)

This energy density is a measure as given above is to show how closely hydrogen atoms are packed in as a fuel. (Hydrogen is present in all above fuels).

To make it more clear, I have tried to take a comparative example of the fuel tank. We will have to think big here as you will understand as you read below:

A 500-Ltr diesel tank containing 400 kg of fuel is equivalent on an energy basis to a 8000 L volume of hydrogen gas at 3600 psi (250 bar), although the weight of the hydrogen is only 150 kg, representing a decrease in fuel weight by a factor of about 2.8.

The same diesel tank is equivalent to a 2100-Ltr tank of liquid hydrogen. This is a 4.2 times increase in volume.

If hydrogen is stored as a metal hydride, every kilogram of diesel fuel is replaced by approximately 4.5 kg of metal hydride to maintain the same hydrogen/diesel energy equivalence. Thus the same 500 Ltr diesel tank containing 400 kg of fuel would have to be replaced with a hydride tank containing 1725 kg of “fuel” mass . For the benefit of all of us here on this blog, no one has even a car that weights that much unless it is a fully loaded Truck (Tata, or may be Volvo). Boston University some years ago also researched on this subject and concluded that use of nano-fibers to store hydrogen could be an answer, however, I have not been able to follow up on how far they reached on this.

For the time being, for the sake of almighty , let us not talk about Hydrogen tanks unless there is someone trying it out with sucess, in which case he should be in NASA and not here.
--------------

Naveen following is for you in particular:

As regards the power: I have not measured it on a roller chassis dynamometer yet, but will shortly do, it and give more info on this once done. However the increase of power is noticeable, I feel it is about 20-25% increase. On my return from Chandigarh a week ago, I could put an Octavia to shame with my small Wagon R, but this was no race, it could have been an looser driving the scoda instead.

I am keen to learn from you on three areas as below:

1) Ignition timing by a Timing retarders. Could you write more on this explaining in detail as to how you retard the ignition.

2) Are you using parallel ECU? Are you not modifying the existing signals of ECU?

3) I would love to learn on how different your design of HHO conversion is in comparison to what I have done and explained in detail here. It is probably my turn now to learn from you guys. Thank you all in advance for the same.

Anjeel Babbar
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Old 21st October 2008, 22:14   #44
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thanks for the explanation anjeel. makes things easy to understand. bt, building a system, for some one non technical like me, is a whole different game. its nice to have people on the thread who seem to know what they're doing.
currently on an all diesel stable. will start pestering you when I find a nice 2nd hand petrol.
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Old 22nd October 2008, 10:44   #45
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Thanks for the data and figures, Anjeel. Will start pestering you shortly
ps: Have you considered storing only H2 and not as HHO?
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