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Old 7th August 2009, 23:41   #76
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Default Pl merge

Dear Mods,
a couple of posts are hanging loose in the thread Hydrogen fuel cells - inputs needed
and a request for merging with this thread is pending.
Cheers
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Old 14th August 2009, 00:22   #77
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Dear Readers,

Reading all points in this thread and similar threads, it can be safely said :-

(1) The basic engine in commercially produced vehicles are either for petrol (gasoline) or diesel. The difference need not be highlighted

(2) If any other medium is introduced along with petrol fuel or diesel fuel there could be a marginal improvement to the extent of chemical process allows and efficiency allowable to existing technology on that perticular vehicle.

(3) Possibility of modifications on basic combustion process mechanical parts and or control parts (mechanical / electrical / electronic) that can be conducive to improve the process with added medium to base fuel.

(4) If a totally non-petrol or non-diesel fuel is to be used a totally new "engine" design will entail to be most efficient to that medium.

(5) Members and others are putting effort from different approaches to see viable solutions in trials which could later evolve into an OE (Original Equipment) product. Thus trying to reduce dependence on present fuels for its possible shortage and reduce its present side effects to the extent best possible.

(6) It does take time, especially to achieve the desired performance. Some items / products / technology may not be commercially available or not yet known. But these exercises do lead people to discover / invent a suitable technology, or adaptation from "elsewhere" to present engine technology.

(7) In extreme cases present trials may need to be abandoned but re-visit some time or many years later when suitable technology makes it feasible.

Hence all trials done TODAY are useful and critisism offered will make way to better products.

Best wishes to all those who are contributing to this thread and who will continue to contribute till "suitable" technology evolves. The thrill of something working from our thinking concepts are the most cherished moments in ones life whether they are appreciated by other or not.

= Shishya =
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Old 11th March 2013, 11:30   #78
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Default Run engine with Water using a kit??

Hi,

Came across this:

http://dehradun.olx.in/make-your-car...-iid-489902470

Just wondering what the catch is? Is this believable?
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Old 11th March 2013, 11:43   #79
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Default Re: Run engine with Water using a kit??

WOW!! Never knew that rocket since could be so simple

Here's a pic that explains the technology:

Name:  1362942908_489902470_2makeyourcarrunonwaterfuelHHOkitDehraDun.jpg
Views: 9180
Size:  42.7 KB

Last edited by Warwithwheels : 11th March 2013 at 11:48.
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Old 11th March 2013, 11:45   #80
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Default Re: Run engine with Water using a kit??

... and here is a website that explains this scam.

http://www.hhoinfo.info/main/scamworks.html

Last edited by hotstuff : 11th March 2013 at 11:48. Reason: Typo.
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Old 11th March 2013, 11:52   #81
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Default Re: Run engine with Water using a kit??

hi. Not an expert on advanced hydrogen powered propulsion systems, but i guess i know how this one works.

water with a few drops of acid dropped in makes for a very nice electrolyte. When you pass electricity through it, the electricity breaks down the water molecules into H and O molecules, which emerge in the form of bubbles from the anode and cathode. now, H2 and 02 make for a good recipe for some explosion.

If one manages to get these gases into the intake manifold, they'll theoretically act as fuel to push the pistons down.

but there are catches in this system.
1. Not able to produce enough H2 and O2 to run the engine on these alone. Hence the term Hybrid- These are injected with gasoline/diesel to aid cylinder pressures.

2. producing these gases warrants need of water and electricity. so keep a few water bottles handy to fill it in. no idea how long one will last.

3. electrolysis- the process by which water is being dissociated into hydrogen and oxygen, may consume/ corrode the electrodes due to presence of acid to make water a better electrolyte. this will lead to deposits formation and stuff- read opening and cleaning frequently.

4. tap water is not pure and will lead to scale formation rendering the electrodes useless. Use distilled water only.

5. reliability is a question.

6. I fail to see how they manage to carefully meter the amount of H2 being fed to the engine. one kit, a hundered different types of engines. optimisation???

This may work, im not trying to say it wont, but i'd like a better quantification of numbers before i install it in my car.
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Old 11th March 2013, 17:53   #82
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Default Re: Water Powered Car / HHO Generators - Boost mileage & performance

it will definitely work, but the performance gain will be vestigial at best.
because the amount of nascent O going into the engine will be very little.

also any gain what so ever might be negated by the fact that there is extra load on the alternator caused by this generator.

the only way something like this would be beneficial is if the water molecule could be split by a catalyst rather than electricity.

also HHO gas is highly unstable and will combust at the drop of a hat. I think it burns at close to 2000 Degrees F. So if you pump a significant amount into the engine you could cause permanent damage.
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Old 19th April 2013, 13:07   #83
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Default Re: Water Powered Car / HHO Generators - Boost mileage & performance

A friend of mine made a car that he says , runs on water . Mechanism is the similar . After electrolysis the gas is sent to the engine for combustion . He claims that he just starts the car on petrol and then later it runs only on water . The internals were aluminium coated so as to prevent corrosion .
Now my question is : Why don't we have these commercialized ? And is it a big thing that deserves recognition (cause he wants to bring it forward) ?
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Old 3rd May 2013, 05:31   #84
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Default Re: Water Powered Car / HHO Generators - Boost mileage & performance

In a relatively inefficient engine (carburettor, generally older or worn engine) the addition of hydrogen and steam can improve the efficiency of burn enormously. The hydrogen improves combustion by igniting otherwise poorly or otherwise unburnt fuel, steam de-carbonises the combustion chamber and valves and can free-off sticking piston rings.

It takes electrical energy (very inefficiently produced by the car's alternator) to make HHO or Brown's Gas, which in itself cannot be considered as a fuel in this situation, but in making the fuel burn more efficiently the energy needed to create it is more than made up for by the improved efficiency of the engine's combustion.
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Old 25th May 2013, 20:22   #85
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Default Run your Vehicle on Water and Save between 35-70% on Fuel Expenses?

I was browsing through the Ebay.in for Bike Cover for my Pulsar 180 UG3 when I came across the following--
1) HHO Water Fuel Kits For 2 Wheelers AQUA FUEL TECHNOLOGIES

2) HHO DRY CELL 9 Plates High Quality For Engines Upto 800cc AQUA FUEL TECHNOLOGIES

3) HHO DRY CELL 11 Plates High Quality For Engines upto 1500cc AQUA FUEL TECHNOLOGIES

4) HHO DRY CELL 21 Plates High Quality For Engines upto 3000cc AQUA-FUEL-TECHNOLOGIES

Is this a scam or is it really possible?
What are the Pros and Cons of this?

MODS, Please move it to appropriate section if needed.
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Old 26th May 2013, 14:43   #86
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Default Re: Run your Vehicle on Water and Save between 35-70% on Fuel Expenses?

This is all baseless stuff and does not work in reality.
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Old 26th May 2013, 16:05   #87
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Default Re: Run your Vehicle on Water and Save between 35-70% on Fuel Expenses?

What I gathered upon googling on the technology and the company (Hyderabad based), is that they have developed a Hydrogen fuel generator, basically cracking water into Hydrogen and Oxygen. They send the generated hydrogen into the combustion chamber of the engine, along with fuel air mixture. As per them, the presence of increased hydrogen in the fuel air mixture, helps burn the mixture more completely, also adding power because of the explosive nature of Hydrogen gas itself.

To me it sounds a bit fishy. Reason:

1) If adding Hydrogen gas to fuel air mixture increased power and reduced fuel consumption, why would there be no Hydrogen cylinder kits (like NOS kits), which helped add hydrogen (taken from a cylinder), at demand?

2) This voilates the second law of thermodynamics. The action of producing hydrogen from water using the car's alternator is more energy draining than the result of getting power out of burning hydrogen in the combustion chamber. It results in a net power loss not gain. More details available at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_enhancement

This nonsense has been going on for years, in the US, with some companies claiming to develop devices to save fuel by this technology. Looks like the Hyderabad based company now wants to fraud the Indian public
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Old 4th June 2013, 04:03   #88
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Default Re: Water Powered Car / HHO Generators - Boost mileage & performance

This isn't a clever solution to the inefficient internal combustion engine, unlike GEET technologies. It can also be a little dangerous to have Hydrogen being formed on the go, unless the installation is of a very high quality.

What most seem to miss is that this isn't a fuel as such but a catalyst to improve the combustion of the petrol. So it will work well on older engines which don't burn the fuel as efficiently as more modern ones. If it were a fuel, then the inherently inefficient method of production would fail to explain the real-world efficiency improvements which many people experience.

It would be good to try and explain why so many find a significant improvement in economy with a Brown's gas/HHO system.
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Old 25th November 2013, 15:00   #89
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Default Re: Run your Vehicle on Water and Save between 35-70% on Fuel Expenses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madan80 View Post
....this dude is converting the water to H2 and back to water - as much s it seems to be really simple - the energy equation appears to be skewed....
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulBarber View Post
....Here basically water undergoes electrolysis to produce HH and O. It then undergoes combustion to produce energy + water. But energy produced during combustion should be less than or equal to energy (electricity) spend in doing the electrolysis right?

Then isn't it better to run the car directly on battery instead of going through this roundabout approach?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEraser View Post
..... Plus if we can use green electricity (Wind Power) to produce enough electricity on the run, we will get infinite FE with almost 0 (zero) pollution....
@ DarkEraser, I can only hope that was sarcasm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
....This voilates the second law of thermodynamics. The action of producing hydrogen from water using the car's alternator is more energy draining than the result of getting power out of burning hydrogen in the combustion chamber. It results in a net power loss not gain.....
Lots of discussion here, even experts with technically detailed posts, but nobody seems to be answering the burning question.

How do you spend energy to split 2H20 into H2 and O2, then combine it back to 2H2O and expect to have more energy than you started with?

First, this HHO gas, what is it?
Hydrogen exits as H2 and Oxygen as O2. When these gases are generated via electrolysis of water, 2 molecules or H2O give 2 molecules of H2 and 1 molecule of O2 via the balanced chemical reaction:
Quote:
2 H2O -elec-> 2H2 + O2
Oxygen won't exist as O, it will instantly form O2 with the molecule around it. So what is HHO?

Next, energy generation.
1) Steel IC engine has a max efficiency of 37%.
2) For a 100hp engine alternator consumes about 2hp. ie 2% of engine power.
3) For the car's alternator, at partial load efficiency is between 50-62%.
4) Charge efficiency of sealed lead-acid battery is 95%.
5) Electrolysis of H2O requires 237.13 kJ of energy per mol. PLUS, electrolysis in not 100 % efficient. Lets take 99%, even though it is lower.
6) H2 and O2, on combustion produce 286 kJ/mol of H2.
7) Petrol has an energy content of 42.4 MJ/kg variying about 4%.

With the above facts, let us look at a sample calculation.
1 kg of petrol burnt 42.4 Mega Joules (42400 kJ)

Engine converts 37% to rotational (.37x42400) 15688 kJ

2% is drawn by alternator (.02x15688) 313.76 kJ

Alternator produces electricity at 62% efficiency (.62x313.76) 210.22 kJ

Let's assume car is running so alternator directly powers electrolysis.
237.13 kJ required per mole, at 99% efficiency that becomes (237.12 / .99)239.52 kJ per mole. We have 210.22 kJ so we can make (210.22/239.52) 0.878 moles of H2 and associated O2.

We pump this 0.878 moles of H2 into the engine to combust with O2. We get (286x.878) 251.11 kJ of heat.

Engine converts 37% of this to usable. (251.11x.37) 92.91 kJ.

So finally from 1kg of petrol our modified engine makes 15467.15 kJ of energy.
(15688 - 313.76 + 92.91)
While an unmodified engine makes, well, the whole 15688 kJ.

If anyone finds errors in my method or calculation, please point it out.

What these fuel systems are trying to do is, burn petrol, make heat energy, convert into rotational, convert into electrical, convert to chemical, burn hydrogen, make heat. When you engine does burn petrol, make heat.

Its like going Pune to Mumbai the other way around the globe. ( Pune, Cochin, Colombo, Antarctica, Mexico, North pole, Russia, Kazakhstan, Surat, Mumbai).

You will reach your destination, just a bit more tired.
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