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Old 13th April 2008, 00:46   #16
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Thanks for all your feedback.
A further twist in the tale. Today morning at around 9.30 am I received a call from the workshop manager (WM) of Fortune, Powai requesting permission to inspect the turbocharger diagnosed as faulty at Fortune, Thane yesterday. As it is only couple of kms from my office I dropped in at around 10 am. They checked the turbocharger and could not detect any fault in it. Malfunction symptoms like metal burr, oil leakages absent.
On hooking the laptop some story repeated. No error found. All Clear. We once again had to go on a lengthy drive. Somehow inspite of the traffic managed to cross 60 km/hr after much time and SERVICE light reappears. We drove the vehicle with service light on to the TASS. On hooking the laptop error code pops up Error Code : P0299 Description : Error code unknown (current)
Unfortunately the TATA regional office in Mumbai is closed on Sat, Sun and Mon( bank holiday). However the WM managed to get the Senior Service Head technical (SHT) on mobile. apparently he was in Ahmedabad on a holiday. He appeared to be clueless on this code and asked for time to checkup with the pune plant. Meantime he asked them to check.
1. turbo which the TASS had already checked and reported the same to him.
2. The entire air supply line from suction to air filter in inlet in manifold.
Checked no fault found. Test drive taken. Service light reappears at 60 /hr. Vehicle becomes sluggish
3. The sedimenters 1 and 2 checked for water deposits. Checked no water found. Diesel quality satisfactory. Test drive taken. Service light reappears at 60 km/hr. vehicle sluggish.
4. ECU checked, replaced with the one from the demo safari lying with the dealer. Test drive taken. Service light reappears at 60 km/hr. vehicle sluggish.
5. modulator checked and replaced with one from demo car. Test drive taken service light reappears at 60 km/hr.
By now it was nearly 6 pm. I was getting frustrated with all the experimentation. The WM gets a call from somebody that feedback from the plant that Error Code P0299 pertains to Accelerator pedal travel sensor which cannot be attended by the TASS and apparently somebody from Telco Pune will drop in on Monday to attend this issue.
In the meantime the earlier SHT calls up to open the entire wiring harness which the dealer explained to me was a massive excercise involving dismantling the wiring harness and checking every fault with multimeter. I put my foot down and asked the dealer to refit my original ECU, modulator etc back and cal this SHT asap to attend to this problem personally with all required tools preferably on Monday. The WM asked me to give them some more time till sunday, however seeing that I was adamant and unwilling to leave the vehicle for further experimentation in my absence he called the SHT who hopefully understood the situation and agreed to come down on Tuesday morning.
I packed up my vehicle and returned home with the vehicle by 9 pm.
I will keep all of you posted on the progress in this issue as and when it happens.
Now to answer some of your queries.
kkdelhi;
when I say sluggish it is a drastic reduction in power. Like say driving with the handbrake lever pulled up. I think the vehicle fuel supply gets constricted and it goes into a limp mode. But it becomes impossible to take even slight gradient, in even the first gear. I had to climb couple of flyovers yesterday and made it at snails pace.
They lengthy talk with the dealer was about his failure to detect the problem and address it in time when I had brought it to their attention repeatedly since taking delivery.
Pavan; I second your view that every manufactured car cannot be perfect. However I am not disappointed with the malfunction as much as I am frustrated with their inability to even locate the fault after all this time. Whether the software diagnostics are inefficient or the version is not upgraded at the TASS one doesn't know. But getting an error P0299 with description : unknown error is unacceptable. Further how ridiculous does it sound for someone from Telco plant coming to adjust the "accelerator travel sensor". Wouldn't it be more sensible to replace this sensor. If not in stock replace from the demo safari. At least Plant can mail a video of this procedure to the TASS. After paying nearly 10 lacs I am sent on a wild goose chase hunting for a needle in the haystack.
I was initially patient with their experimentation and every subsequent test ride but the way things were heading I guess if I had allowed them to open up/dismantle the entire vehicle wiring harness they would want to open the engine next !!
Some points if someone could help me with.
1. Any email ID/ mobile no of regional heads at TATA to escalate the issue.
2. I suddenly realize as I write this post that since day one no job card has been opened for my vehicle ??
3. The dealer also happened to mention that on Tuesday when TATA technical team drops in attend to this complaint they would not like me (customer) to be present in the shop floor. I can wait in the waiting lounge or leave to come back later when called. Is this binding on me or can I insist my presence while inspection and repair is on.
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Old 13th April 2008, 00:57   #17
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Here is a wierd request. When the next time it happens, i.e. your vehicle gets very sluggish could you do one thing please? Just put the vehicle on the jack and see if the wheels are rotating freely. Start with the front two.
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Old 13th April 2008, 01:10   #18
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Nothing wrong with the brake's I assume. I just used the hand brake analogy to explain my feeling of sluggishness as the vehicle motion has been arrested. If I switch off the ignition and restart the vehicle, it instantly behaves fantastically as if nothing was ever wrong in the first place till I reach 60 km/hr wherein the SERVICE light pops up.
On my way back from the TASS today evening I consciously kept the speed below 50 km/hr and I had absolutely no issues with either pickup or acceleration in gears 1 to 4.
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Old 13th April 2008, 01:18   #19
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Chances are that you are correct. Still there is no harm in checking since you are checking everything. The reason I asked was because Tata vehicles have shown a trait in the past. I know of at least two vehicles myself and was told by my friend that he knows of a similar case in another. In all these cases the disc used to get jammed on application of the brakes once the temperature reached a certain level. The vehicle used to get sluggish because of this. Once the temperature fell a little the calipers would release and the vehicle again started behaving. I was just wondering if its another one of those case.

EDIT: It was later proven to be fault of the entire brake assembly which was changed along with the master cylinder.

Last edited by Zappo : 13th April 2008 at 01:20.
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Old 13th April 2008, 01:20   #20
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Originally Posted by DDDHRUV View Post
3. The dealer also happened to mention that on Tuesday when TATA technical team drops in attend to this complaint they would not like me (customer) to be present in the shop floor. I can wait in the waiting lounge or leave to come back later when called. Is this binding on me or can I insist my presence while inspection and repair is on.

Ouch, that must have been a real waste of a day. Anyway, when the technical team arrives, insist on a personal audience with them & be around when they fix it. If the dealer objects, ask him to make you speak to the head of the team directly, these guys usually are more accommodating.
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Old 13th April 2008, 02:00   #21
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I am so sorry to hear this dilemma. My guess is that the problem is a faulty sensor as you say that the light comes on when you hit 60 kmph and then the car gets sluggish. Nowadays, cars have so many sensors, one will need to check each one of them to find the one that is malfunctioning. For example, supposing the engine gets a message from a sensor that the emergency brakes (hand brakes) have been applied then it would grind to a halt. Or, if there is a sensor for the governor, that is pre-set not to allow a certain speed to be exceeded.

Again, guesses on my part.

Best

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Old 13th April 2008, 03:14   #22
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Sorry to hear about the problem in your vehicle Dhruv.

Turbo Chargers normally don't fail very quickly. There are 2 factors that limit the life of a turbo charger - Inadequate cooling and more importantly inadeqaute lubrication.

Since your vehicle is brand new it is highly unlikely for either of the above to have occoured and I was most surprised at the initial diagnosis.

However sensor failures are quite common even on new vehicles and this seems the most probable cause in your case.

I hope your vehcile is back in action soon.

Drive safe.

Last edited by Sideways : 13th April 2008 at 03:22.
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Old 13th April 2008, 08:02   #23
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Originally Posted by DDDHRUV View Post
3. The dealer also happened to mention that on Tuesday when TATA technical team drops in attend to this complaint they would not like me (customer) to be present in the shop floor. I can wait in the waiting lounge or leave to come back later when called. Is this binding on me or can I insist my presence while inspection and repair is on.
Tell the dealer you are really worried about the car,if he gives you crap that sir it will be technical,we will handle it etc,glare at tell him that you seen them handle it over the weekend.Get to speak to the tata tech guys,tell them you would want to be there,also try and get the number of the tata regional service engineer(mumbai based) that will come in hand if such an occurance repeats(hope it doesnt!)
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Old 13th April 2008, 08:17   #24
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3. The dealer also happened to mention that on Tuesday when TATA technical team drops in attend to this complaint they would not like me (customer) to be present in the shop floor. I can wait in the waiting lounge or leave to come back later when called. Is this binding on me or can I insist my presence while inspection and repair is on.
Please make sure you watch the inspection and repair carried out.One of the reasons why the dealer could be asking you to not stay in the workshop is to hide his incompetency in diagnosing the fault and finding solutions to rectify it.He might be scared that you might just tell the technicians,what an idiot the TASS guy is.
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Old 13th April 2008, 08:44   #25
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Quote:
Zappo : Here is a wierd request. .. Just put the vehicle on the jack and see if the wheels are rotating freely. Start with the front two.
Zappo, guess by the time this can be accomplished, the vehicle could have returned to normal. With the jacks we carry around, we can lift only one wheel at a given time.

Dhruv, can you give the Safari to Fortune & let them handle this ?

Last edited by condor : 13th April 2008 at 08:46.
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Old 13th April 2008, 09:06   #26
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Nothing wrong with the brake's I assume. I just used the hand brake analogy to explain my feeling of sluggishness as the vehicle motion has been arrested. If I switch off the ignition and restart the vehicle, it instantly behaves fantastically as if nothing was ever wrong in the first place till I reach 60 km/hr wherein the SERVICE light pops up.
On my way back from the TASS today evening I consciously kept the speed below 50 km/hr and I had absolutely no issues with either pickup or acceleration in gears 1 to 4.
I guess you shouldnt worry about the sluggishness AFTER the SERVICE light pops up. I am guessing thats because the ECU goes into "limp" mode in order to protect the engine from further damage.
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Old 13th April 2008, 09:52   #27
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Iraghava; Can I insist on a job card be opened for my vehicle to record all these activities.

Spadival; I agree with you on the limp mode which is similar to the safety mode in windows allowing you to proceed slowly to the nearest TASS.

Condor; The vehicle is has been handled by fortune with me just watching the process. No questions on their sincerety till now only constrained by their inability to crack the error code. They seem to say this is the first such instance anywhere or TATA would have sent an alert circular to them. My only apprehension was that they don't open up the entire vehicle to nuts and bolts in the process of locating the fault. They may end up fixing this issue but some accidental loose refitting may result in another wild goose chase.
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Old 13th April 2008, 09:56   #28
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Originally Posted by spadival View Post
I guess you shouldnt worry about the sluggishness AFTER the SERVICE light pops up. I am guessing thats because the ECU goes into "limp" mode in order to protect the engine from further damage.
I agree with this. If the trigger for the service light popping up is found, I guess the sluggishness issue will hopefully be resolved automatically.

The second instalment of DDDHRUV's story is more intriguing. These TASS folks seem to have no clue, and they are just doing trial and error stuff. Thankfully they decided at some point that they arent competent to solve it, and involved the team from TATA. Otherwise god knows where the whole replace-one-part-check-replace-another-part routine would have ended.

Extremely frustrating time for the customer.

These are occasions where one as a customer wishes one had a low-tech vehicle where all these complications about ECUs and sensors and Check-Engine/Service lights didnt exist. Solving problems were much easier a couple of decades ago.
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Old 13th April 2008, 10:44   #29
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2. I suddenly realize as I write this post that since day one no job card has been opened for my vehicle ??
3. The dealer also happened to mention that on Tuesday when TATA technical team drops in attend to this complaint they would not like me (customer) to be present in the shop floor. I can wait in the waiting lounge or leave to come back later when called. Is this binding on me or can I insist my presence while inspection and repair is on.[/quote]

HI DDDHRUV>>>
PLease ensure that under all circumstances you have a job card for any major job.
I too sat for a while in the waiting lounge but then cooly told the SA that i wanted to inspect the work on my clutch and wanted to verify the authenticity of the engine oil change. they obliged.
I think thay might not let you be there the whole while, but when the guy from Tata motors arrives, you should try and let him know that you want to see whats going on.
wish you luck and hope the ordeal is over soon.
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Old 13th April 2008, 10:49   #30
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Originally Posted by DDDHRUV View Post
On hooking the laptop error code pops up Error Code : P0299 Description : Error code unknown (current)
Did some Sunday morning Googling 4 U.....
(FYI, I used the keywords "p0299 turbo underboost" and "engine ecu p0299".... there are several other links available worth looking at, but I need to meet someone.)

L.O.S.T. KJ/KK - Liberty Owners Special Team :: View topic - code P1252, p0299, p0102 ?
" P0299 Turbo/super charger – low boost Mechanical fault
P0102 Mass air flow (MAF) sensor/volume air flow (VAF) sensor – low input Wiring short to ground, MAF/VAF sensor, ECM and p1252 ???? "

L.O.S.T. KJ/KK - Liberty Owners Special Team :: View topic - code P1252, p0299, p0102 ?
" Problem I'm having is first.. The Car is wanting to stall, the engine light is on the traction control light is on EPC light is on. How could one day things are working and the next it's like this.
I took it to a local VW dealer to have it checked. They are telling me that there are 7 faults.
(P0299. P0106. P0237. P0341. P1639. P1340) Test result as a Faulty ECM.
They checked Mass Air Flow Sensor... Faulty! "

Last edited by sandeepmdas : 13th April 2008 at 10:56.
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