Severe Judder in traffic crawl conditions

[tsk1979]

My Indica has started giving severe clutch judder in crawling traffic conditions.
For example in very slow traffic when I am slowly releasing clutch and doing half clutching(needed in crawl conditions), the whole car shakes like crazy.
However there is no power loss or clutch slippage and the car still touches 130+ given a long enough stretch of road. Even pickup is pretty good and mileage is fine.
Since this is the original clutch I am not in favor of opening the gearbox, and since the clutch plates are fine, why replace them(the car has done 104000+ kms.)
So I am wondering what is the cause of this judder.
Is it the springs? Can I get the springs changed or do I need to change the clutch plates.
Or is it something else?
The transmission oil is almost 20K kms only and is due for replacement next service, could this be the cause of judder?

There is judder also if I floor the accelerator on a slightly higher gear than necessary, for example If I am doing 25 and engage thrid gear
So the solution is now to rev her to a slightly higher range before engaging the next gear.

[suman]

Clutch plate or release bearing? Don't think you have a choice other than opening up the gearbox & clutch to figure out what the problem is.....

[dadu]

Seems like similar to Suman's problem (Dicor VX 4X4 joins the family - Now updated to 30000km)

Originally Posted by suman

Clutch plate or release bearing? Don't think you have a choice other than opening up the gearbox & clutch to figure out what the problem is.....

[suman]

Originally Posted by dadu

Seems like similar to Suman's problem (Dicor VX 4X4 joins the family - Now updated to 30000km)

In my case, it was AFTER they fit a new clutch, more an alignment issue. I think Tanvir has a real problem in his hands.

[tsk1979]

If the clutch plate is gone, won't this mean other symptoms like power loss etc.,
I think I will go ahead with the transmission oil change, and get the gearbox mounts etc., checked, if it involves gbox opening and stuff..... Well Then so be it.

[suman]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

If the clutch plate is gone, won't this mean other symptoms like power loss etc.,

You have a point. Try something on an open stretch (highway/expressway) if possible - in 4th gear, let go the accelerator pedal completely & let the car coast on its own revs. I'm not sure at what rpm this would be for the Indica but just try it. If your clutch is otherwise OK, the car will trundle along at a steady speed without any jerks. If there is a problem, the speed will fluctuate as will the revs & the car will stall.

[akash_m]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

If the clutch plate is gone, won't this mean other symptoms like power loss etc.,
I think I will go ahead with the transmission oil change, and get the gearbox mounts etc., checked, if it involves gbox opening and stuff..... Well Then so be it.

I had exactly the same problem in my Swift untill the last month. The car used to judder like crazy in severe traffic/uphill conditions. Just as in your case, there was no power loss at all & I used to touch 150 kmph+. But changing the clutch did the wonders. The judder is totally gone.

Upon asking, the mechanic expalined me that this happens when there is a 'flat spot' on the clutch plate just as in tyres. He showed me the damaged clutch plate in which there was a part of the asbestos lining missing (a burnt clutch). In such cases, there is no loss in power once the clutch is engaged properly. Hope this expalins your problem.

[Jr Godzilla]

TSK
exactly facing the similar problem and this is a Nissan.
all your above findings same as mine. Those judders shudders are real scary not only for the driver but on two occassions I scared pedestrians at a Zebra crossing. It is awful.

I did show the mechanic who said that it is clutch problem. But as you I am feeling no power loss and this will happen only at start or being in 2nd gear city driving. I HAVE AN EASY WAY TO AVOID THE NOISE - if your rpm is perfect (as required) in idle, slowly release all clutch, no throttle and let it move slowly quite hard in bumper to bumper situation but still better than the violent judder.

Also in my case(hydraulic clutch self adjusting) I have a doubt (no time yet to get it done though) is the clutch fluid which on one occasion was empty letting the pedal loose but i may not have had air in as i immediately topped and the clutch was fine.
on second occassion the fluid was all black pointing to possibly master cylinder, just soaked all of the fluid with tissue paper , topped up with new fluid, checked later fluid is clean no leak on firewall or driver pedal inside car.

Also noted the judder happens when the engine is reasonably hot mostly in traffic on open highways its there but very lightly felt. Also this judder happens in reverse gear when engine is hot.

Suman
done the 3rd / 4th gear movements no probs at all.

TSK looking to hear from you. kindly update when u get it resolved.

Originally Posted by akash_m

I had exactly the same problem in my Swift untill the last month. The car used to judder like crazy in severe traffic/uphill conditions. Just as in your case, there was no power loss at all & I used to touch 150 kmph+. But changing the clutch did the wonders. The judder is totally gone.

Upon asking, the mechanic expalined me that this happens when there is a 'flat spot' on the clutch plate just as in tyres. He showed me the damaged clutch plate in which there was a part of the asbestos lining missing (a burnt clutch). In such cases, there is no loss in power once the clutch is engaged properly. Hope this expalins your problem.

can you let me know if you only changed clutch
or
did you have to change pressure plate, release bearing,
is it recommended to change the above and i guess there is some job to be done on flywheel also pls share your views.

[tsk1979]

@Suman, I don't think the NA indica has enough low end torque to idle through 4th gear, though 3rd gear should be okay
@Jr Godzilla, exact same problem here, and I also do the same, release clutch slowly at idle. But when AC is on the idle rate is high, and this problem comes.
@akash, well this could be the problem here too, I have burned the clutch partially on many himalayan adventures due to getting stuck. Guess I will live with it and go for clutch plate opening at 110000kms

[akash_m]

Originally Posted by Jr Godzilla

can you let me know if you only changed clutch
or
did you have to change pressure plate, release bearing,
is it recommended to change the above and i guess there is some job to be done on flywheel also pls share your views.

Since it was a complete clutch overhaul, the pressure plate and the bearings were also changed. But as told my the mechanic, the culprit was the clutch plate only & could have rectified the judder by itself..

[Technocrat]

Since we are on the topic, The Alto faces this issue as well. Initially I was under impression that my clutch has worn out but there was no difference in pick up\top speed\mileage.
Recently when I took my car to Tune up Plus(recommended by Pune TBhpians for servicing) He said this is common in all the Altos & only in newer generation cars they have changed the design & its fixed now. This involves changin fly wheel etc i.e. the whole assembly which is an expensive affair. Its not very frequent but whenever happens it is bad

So what I would recommend is that check out if there are similar upgrades in clutch design for your car's clutch.

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Guess I will live with it and go for clutch plate opening at 110000kms

Gosh, Tanveer, does that mean no mtn trips for the next 6000 kms?
We'll miss your nice travelogues & pics! And right in the middle of the holidays season.

[tsk1979]

Well well, who said that she can't go mountaineering. Its just a clutch

@TEchnocrat, if it was a design problem the judder would have come earlier, not after 100000kms!

[HappyWheels]

Originally Posted by Technocrat

Since we are on the topic, The Alto faces this issue as well. Initially I was under impression that my clutch has worn out but there was no difference in pick up\top speed\mileage.
Recently when I took my car to Tune up Plus(recommended by Pune TBhpians for servicing) He said this is common in all the Altos & only in newer generation cars they have changed the design & its fixed now. This involves changin fly wheel etc i.e. the whole assembly which is an expensive affair. Its not very frequent but whenever happens it is bad

So what I would recommend is that check out if there are similar upgrades in clutch design for your car's clutch.

Was going to mention this. I have the same issue with my Alto (has done 47k kms, shudder started around 43k kms). The shudder happens when initial start,especially when going up a slope, and there is no loss of power or mileage. Did not know that this was a design flaw! And that too a expensive one to get rectified!

So what is suggested - live with it or fix it? Techno, what did you do?

[Technocrat]

well even in alto it doesnt show initially but only after 25k-27k on odo & then there are some who havent faced it.

EDIT: in HW's case after 43k

Just posted as a pointer didnt mean that it is the same\similar issue

@HW: I am not fixing it as its costs 4.5k or so, basically needs to replace with new clutch setup. Since this isnt much frequent I am not changing.