Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th July 2008, 09:50   #16
Senior - BHPian
 
iceman91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: melbourne/bangalore
Posts: 1,958
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by khan_sultan View Post
Iceman, Why would that be? Is it because this setup will increase the 'low end torque' or what?
Yes to an extent and also in off road conditions the speed of the vehicle is lower than on the roads/streets. hence the air flow is less in the engine bay. So to compensate for that.

Last edited by iceman91 : 8th July 2008 at 09:52. Reason: spelling errors
iceman91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 15:35   #17
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Iceman thank a ton that was very informative but i was so so bad in math that i cant tell you how i managed to scrape through 10th and 12th grade.
So if i have the following filter installed in a 2002 model Ikon 1.6 ROCAM, is it good enough or am i making the engine gasp for air.

RC-3870 Product Specifications
Product Style: Round Tapered Universal Air Filter[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Base Outside Diameter: 5 in (127 mm)[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Flange Inside Diameter: 3 in (76 mm)[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Flange Length: 1.75 in (44 mm)[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Flange Type: Centered[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Height: 5 in (127 mm)[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Top Outside Diameter: 4.5 in (114 mm)[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Top Style: Metal[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Top Material/Finish: Chrome[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Filter Re-Oiling Amount: 0.88 oz (26 ml)[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Flanges: 1 [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Inner Wire: No[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Weight: 1 lb (0.5 kg)[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Product Box Length: 7.19 in (183 mm)[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Product Box Width: 6.5 in (165 mm)[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][COLOR=black]Product Box Height: 6.56 in (167 mm)[/FONT][/COLOR]
Attached Images
 
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 15:39   #18
Senior - BHPian
 
iceman91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: melbourne/bangalore
Posts: 1,958
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

You are giving it more than enough air my friend.
If you want to, you an go one step more and put in an extreme filter.

in Delhi contact Arush, this would be a snap for him.
Cheers
iceman91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 16:00   #19
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Thanks mate! was just concerned because i have seen other cars with way bigger air-filter and dont want to go in for an extreme because the chrome part of this filter is facing the body panel, Extreme Series will have that part open but wont be of much use in my car.
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 16:01   #20
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman91 View Post
in Delhi contact Arush, this would be a snap for him.
Cheers
Could'nt get that part!???
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 16:02   #21
Senior - BHPian
 
iceman91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: melbourne/bangalore
Posts: 1,958
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

To Install it
I thought you were also asking for someone to fix it for you

so it would be very easy for him ...

Last edited by iceman91 : 8th July 2008 at 16:03.
iceman91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 16:14   #22
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Oh ok! no but i already have it installed. Just skipped my mind that Arush would have had Green aswell.
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 16:17   #23
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

I told you i am bad at math but with your formula i got a figure of 77.75 which is the effective filtering area.
A = effective filtering area
H = height
D = outside diameter of the filter
3.14 = pi
0.75 = the rubber end caps
so
A = (H * 3.14 * D) - 0.75
A = (5 * 3.14 * 5) - 0.75 = 77.75
But i still could'nt figure out the size that i should be looking for with 77.75 Effective filtering area and how do i find out if that much is enough for my car?
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 16:19   #24
BHPian
 
RedMM340's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: on the move
Posts: 459
Thanked: 23 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman91 View Post
If maximum horsepower is the objective, the size and shape of the air filter element is paramount.

Let's first consider shape. When fitting a conventional round filter on top of the engine, such as a carburetor, central fuel injection or throttle body fuel injection, we have found a large diameter, short filter will flow more air than a small diameter, tall filter. For example, a 10-inch diameter filter 2-inches tall will flow more air than a 5-inch diameter filter that is 4-inches tall. Where space permits, the height of the filter should be between 1/5 and 1/4 of its diameter.

The shape of the filter is less important if the application calls for a remote mounted filter, which includes many late model fuel injected models. Typically these vehicles will use a flat panel filter or a conical or cylindrical shaped filter with a rubber mounting flange designed to be mounted on the end of the inlet hose.

That brings us to size.

Use the formula below to compute the minimum size filter required for your particular application. The usable portion of the filter is called the EFFECTIVE FILTERING AREA which is determined by multiplying the diameter of the filter times Pi (3.1416) times the height of the air filter in inches, then subtracting .75-inch. We subtract .75-inch to compensate for the rubber seals on each end of the element and the filter material near them since very little air flows through this area.


A = effective filtering area
CID = cubic inch displacement
RPM = revolutions per minute at maximum power

Example: A 350 CID Chevy engine with a horsepower peak at 5,500 rpm.


If you are sizing a panel filter, multiply the width of the filter area (not the rubber seal) times its length. If you are sizing a round filter, use the following formula to determine the height of the filter.


A = effective filtering area
H = height
D = outside diameter of the filter
3.14 = pi
0.75 = the rubber end caps

Example:


Referencing the K&N catalog shows the proper filter for this application would be an E-1500 which is 3.5 inches tall. Keep in mind, this is the minimum size requirement. To extend the service interval and to provide an even greater volume of air to the engine, install the largest filter that will fit in the space allotted. If the space above the engine is restrictive, perhaps a remote filter arrangement could be used to gain space.

Off-road conditions require added filter area. A filter should be sized 1-1/2 to 2 times larger than normal for any conditions that could be considered severe. In this case, the E-1500 used in our example should be replaced by an E-1120 or an E-1150. For long distance off-road events, two double-size remote mounted filters would be best.



Taken from K&N Site K&N High Performance Air Filters, Oil Filters, & Cold Air Intakes - Official K&N Engineering Site

Hi Iceman,
So if I read you highly technical calculations above and summarize in a very simple way:

Stuff in the largest K&N filter that will fit.
RedMM340 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 17:03   #25
Senior - BHPian
 
iceman91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: melbourne/bangalore
Posts: 1,958
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

exactly..Gaurav.
you said that first but no one believed it.

I said look at the application manual..but alas.

So do what serves best. Put Verbatim info from the website.
iceman91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 17:17   #26
Senior - BHPian
 
iceman91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: melbourne/bangalore
Posts: 1,958
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

Dear Abhik,
The post By K&N is for the smallest size required by your car. so by having a 77.75 you are more than sufficient for your vehicle.

here:

K&N Air Filter Facts You Should Know

its more clearer there with the formulae illustrated
iceman91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 18:59   #27
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

A = effective filtering area
CID = cubic inch displacement
RPM = revolutions per minute at maximum power


Example: A 350 CID Chevy engine with a horsepower peak at 5,500 rpm.



Thanks a ton Iceman the above calculation worked fine for me and as per it the engine is getting nore than double the air required. Sorry for being such a dud!!

Last edited by abhik : 8th July 2008 at 19:04.
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 19:03   #28
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Would you have any idea about the relationship between torque and the amount of air being fed in. w.r.t to lean/rich mixture and AFR adjustment by the ECU for the same?

I understand more oxygen translates to more power but with lager air-filters air volume entering the TB also increases.
And maybe at a point when the ECU would not have a map to decide upon regarding AFR then the check engine light will come up right?
And this can be overcome by a piggyback ECU right?
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 19:36   #29
Senior - BHPian
 
iceman91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: melbourne/bangalore
Posts: 1,958
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

large tb and bigger air filters yes do relate to more air, but then that helps to a certain limit after which forced induction comes in for more power.
That will confuse you, to make it simpler you can get small percentage gains with better air intake and fueling etc. but the biggest gain comes in by adding forced induction in terms of turbo, supercharger or for short spurts by NOS.

To get into that discussion..we need to sit with a good 18 year old (single malt or scotch) ... and then things will be clearer.
iceman91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2008, 19:59   #30
BHPian
 
abhik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 848
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman91 View Post
large tb and bigger air filters yes do relate to more air, but then that helps to a certain limit after which forced induction comes in for more power.
That will confuse you, to make it simpler you can get small percentage gains with better air intake and fueling etc. but the biggest gain comes in by adding forced induction in terms of turbo, supercharger or for short spurts by NOS.

To get into that discussion..we need to sit with a good 18 year old (single malt or scotch) ... and then things will be clearer.
Thanks mate but i am clear on TC and SC concepts though i wont surely mind the invite!!
But what i was refferring to was the use of a high-flow filter increasing or decreasing low-end or top-end as what i experienced after the fitment of the KnN was slight increase in low-end torque and a slight loss of top-end. What i expected was increase in performance through out the rev range but max performance is only around 3000-4000RPMs.
abhik is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Adjustable Suspension: How to determine the right setting? supercars Modifications & Accessories 13 3rd February 2015 17:15
How to Determine the Fuse/Wire Size for YOUR Project. Shakensoul Technical Stuff 0 27th January 2009 23:41
Please help determine the cost of the ICE Stig In-Car Entertainment 1 13th December 2008 21:43
How to determine what size Power Cables for ICE? Answers inside... gunbir In-Car Entertainment 96 8th May 2006 11:34


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 16:41.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks