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Old 16th July 2008, 18:27   #16
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Originally Posted by RedMM340 View Post
tsk1979,

This is why some people will put in a little 2 stroke engine oil with each fill up of USLD.
Have done this in my 02 Indica DLX and psychologically found the car to be smoother than before. But didnt continue that for long!

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
So won't our modern cars have problems in their particulate filters
Suppose E-IV is implemented only in metros and highways stay at E-II
Yeah, I see your POV, but guess one has to live with it, or carry enough gas alongwith him if he is to travel on the suburbs.

Between metroes, most modern cars have large capacity fuel tanks to take you on a tankful from one to the other. It is when you want to go elsewhere the problem arises!
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Old 16th July 2008, 20:08   #17
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Originally Posted by Zappo View Post
Even if I do take fuel in a small town, most probably it will mix with the existing fuel in the tank (which is hopefully E-III compliant) and dilute the sulphur content further for this one off case.
Zappo, I agree that it will be the case for normal users like us. But surely there are Indica, Innova etc Taxi cabs which run in tier 2/tier 3 towns. While the point raised is very valid & logical, I am just wondering whether anyone has had any more practical experience on this. Surely, we should have information available on this issue from the market..anyone let me start searching and see whether I get any info on this.
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Old 16th July 2008, 21:01   #18
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I got your point tanveer and I would agree with Zappo on a broader level, but do you really want to go indepth into it ??.

We would have to understand the pollutants their effect on EGR/ catalysts etc and it will be a lengthy read.

Psst...its already motivating me to post


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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
dadu you did not understand my query,
Metros have E-III cars designed to run on E-III diesel which is 350mg/kg
On highways you get E-II diesel.
So won't our modern cars have problems in their particulate filters
Suppose E-IV is implemented only in metros and highways stay at E-II because refineries say they can't make enough E-III.
This is a real problem, infact recent shortage of hyd diesel was due to E-III shortage(E-II was readily available outside city)

So now you have a car with emission control system and particulate filters designed to take 50mg/kg
But the diesel you fill is 0.05 by %mass ie 500mg/kg!
10 times the design specifications.

Last edited by dadu : 16th July 2008 at 21:04.
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Old 16th July 2008, 21:52   #19
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The precise answer is that it will damage, but then, the damage will only be big if a peson buys E-III diesel vehicle and then shifts to E-II city and fills in fuel from there.

Otherwise the damage wont be much.

However, IMHO, the manufactureres have made proper modifications so that the E-III engine and other parts wont get damaged immediately if E-II sort of fuel is filled in.
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Old 16th July 2008, 22:37   #20
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Quote:
aaggoswami : The precise answer is that it will damage,
@Aggo, what exactly will the damage be ? Which parts, how long, and the characteristics as it dies ?
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Old 17th July 2008, 10:40   #21
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The answer lies in understanding the Diesel engine and their emissions as its different from Petrol and how the emission level are controlled

Over the last 15 years, Diesel engine manufacturers have introduced a variety of engine modifications to reduce emissions, improve performance and increase efficiency.These modifications include direct injection, high-pressure injection, computer controls, multiple injections, exhaust gas recirculation (EGR), and inter-cooling.

Although most of these technologies by themselves do not require specific fuel sulphur levels, most if not all, will be more durable with lower sulphur fuel, which reduces fuel injector corrosion, piston ring corrosion, oil acidification, and overall engine wear. The EGR control valve can become corroded with high sulphur levels, hence sulphur levels should be restricted to maximum 500 ppm.

The way to tackle Emissions are (which is why these technologies are used) :
Firstly, reducing sulphur in fuels reduces direct emissions of both sulphur dioxide and sulphate PM from all vehicles, old and new. Sulphur dioxide (SO2) emissions from diesel and petrol vehicles and particulate matter from diesel vehicles tend to increase in direct proportion to the amount of sulphur in the fuel. While sulphate particles may account for only a small fraction of particle volume or mass, they are fine and ultra-fine in particle size and account for a large fraction of particle numbers.

Secondly, sulphur poisons or reduces the effectiveness of vehicle emission control technologies for diesel vehicles, resulting in increased vehicle emissions of carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbon (HC), nitrogen oxide (NOx) and particulate matter (PM). It also poisons or reduces the effectiveness of new types of emission control devices such as advanced catalytic converters and diesel particle traps, which can further reduce NOx, HC and PM emissions.

The most common technologies used to reduce emissions in diesel vehicles are diesel oxidation catalysts and diesel particulate filters.To meet emission standards Diesel particulate filters are an effective application, but also require fuel with a sulphur content of 50 ppm, and preferably 15 ppm.

Now things we need to understand:
  • The modern catalytic converter is one of the most reliable elements in the engine management system. It is very robust since it is normally placed in a metal housing and has a lifespan of over 100,000 Kms.
  • The use of a particulate filter is the best way to avoid damage to the catalytic system. This consist of positioning a filter in the exhaust line which is designed to collect both solid and liquid particulate matter (PM) emissions but allowing the exhaust gases to go through. A large number of Diesel vehicles are now being fitted with such Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF).
  • These filters primarily retain minute particles of soot, lube-oil ashes, engine wear products as well as fuel borne catalyst ashes. Further catalytic soot burning allows regeneration of its efficiency. Normally maintenance should be done every 100,000 Kms.
Sources: A B C

Last edited by dadu : 17th July 2008 at 10:42.
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Old 17th July 2008, 11:52   #22
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Originally Posted by dadu View Post
The EGR control valve can become corroded with high sulphur levels, hence sulphur levels should be restricted to maximum 500 ppm.
Dadu, I have been told that sulphur levels in our diesels (non-EIII) is sometimes as high as 1000 ppm..should that not have an impact?
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Old 17th July 2008, 11:58   #23
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Shouldnt be, since the policy is defined by goverment of India and followed by the oil companies and we are not talking about adulterated fuel, as no one has control over it.

Euro II norms is completed in India by 2006, 500 mg/kg sulphur

Euro III norms to be accomplished by 2010 in whole India. 350 mg/kg sulphur

Euro IV norms implemented in 11 major cities by April 2010 and then will spread across india in phased manner. 50 mg/kg sulphur

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridharps View Post
Dadu, I have been told that sulphur levels in our diesels (non-EIII) is sometimes as high as 1000 ppm..should that not have an impact?

Last edited by dadu : 17th July 2008 at 11:59.
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Old 17th July 2008, 12:03   #24
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@dadu, from what you have said, I can see at this time, possible damage only to the cat-con.

Everything else can be manufactured to withstand that marginally high sulphur levels that E-2 fuel has. This includes metal parts (whether inside the CR unit or the FIP or the fuel tank ) or non-metallic parts (rubber / plastic / composites).
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Old 17th July 2008, 12:11   #25
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I would say nothing, provided manufacturers already built these factors in their designs.

There are basically three components EGR, DPF and Catalytic converter.

EGR valve can be built with better quality to withstand high sulphur.

DPF can be built accordingly to trap the PM.

Catcon will loose its effectiveness or become neutral at the most.


Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
@dadu, from what you have said, I can see at this time, possible damage only to the cat-con.

Everything else can be manufactured to withstand that marginally high sulphur levels that E-2 fuel has. This includes metal parts (whether inside the CR unit or the FIP or the fuel tank ) or non-metallic parts (rubber / plastic / composites).
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Old 17th July 2008, 12:15   #26
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Originally Posted by condor View Post
@Aggo, what exactly will the damage be ? Which parts, how long, and the characteristics as it dies ?

The cat-converter is the one to be affected, only after prolnoged use. Much depends on the quality of fuel. The claimed E-II fuel might not be that good ( as is the case in my city ).
However, the diesel available in E-II cities would give slightly better lubrication that E-III fuel.

The chances of EGR getting damaged are also there.

But as I had mentioned in my earlier post, mostly the manufcturers take these factors into consideration and so we need not worry that much.
Generally, the E-III vehicles are available in E-II cities. The fuel they are going to use is E-II. The reported problems are not too much in numbers.

Its like this, if one started running an old car with CNG, then there are chances of damage to engine. However this is not the case now.
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Old 17th July 2008, 12:33   #27
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These days I often find only turbo-diesel at the pumps, they often run out of regular diesel. Is that safe to be put into old Jeep? Is turbo diesel less lubricating than regular diesel?
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Old 17th July 2008, 12:45   #28
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Its not a question of lubricity. The lubrication standards remains the same, no matter what, EUII to EUIV.

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These days I often find only turbo-diesel at the pumps, they often run out of regular diesel. Is that safe to be put into old Jeep? Is turbo diesel less lubricating than regular diesel?
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Old 17th July 2008, 12:53   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dadu View Post
Its not a question of lubricity. The lubrication standards remains the same, no matter what, EUII to EUIV.
IMO, the E-III fuel has lower sulphur content.
And lowering the sulphur content reduces the lubricity of fuel.
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Old 17th July 2008, 13:02   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
These days I often find only turbo-diesel at the pumps, they often run out of regular diesel. Is that safe to be put into old Jeep? Is turbo diesel less lubricating than regular diesel?
"Apparently, one source of the trouble is that there are many ways to remove the sulphur content. The cheapest of these involves hydrotreating, a process that removes sulphur by treating it with hydrogen. Unfortunately, hydrogen is highly reactive and also reduces the lubricity, or lubrication properties, of the end-product diesel. Another factor in the equation is the initial content of sulphur in the base crude oil; crude from Alaska tends to be very high sulphur, Venezuelan relatively low, for example. As a result the lubrication properties of the fuel could be different for each oil refinery and can even change as a particular refinery's crude oil sources change."
Read the full article at Engine Damage From Low Sulphur Diesel Fuel . This is an old article but may be relevant for your case.
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