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Old 23rd July 2008, 00:39   #1
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Default Remote Mounted Turbochargers

Just saw this while browsing through the net Squires Turbo Systems - Turbocharged Innovation!

Of course, remote mounted turbos have disadvantages too, for eg. the temperature of the exhaust gasses will be lower when they reach the turbo.

After thinking about it, i was wondering, why cant the turbo be mounted after a normal performance header? ie, between the cat con and the header. wont that be more effective, as the exhaust gasses will have higher temperature and also the header, installed for "scavenging" the exhaust gasses from the engine, will help the turbo to spool up faster?

Obviously, this would mean more heat and vibration inside the cabin, but other than that, what other demerits will it have? and ya, about the oil return into the sump, an oil pump can be used i guess.

I am not all tht good at cars, but then just wondering, if it is possible.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 00:51   #2
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DTM Power BMW Message Board Forum - View Single Post - Remote mount turbo

I have no expertise in this area ( i seem to have lost my way from the ICE forums) , but i suppose some more googling should help you find more info

Last edited by greenhorn : 23rd July 2008 at 00:55.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 05:04   #3
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More lag, headers will eventually fail/crack/fall apart due to the heat's/heat cycles it was not designed/made for, oil sump isn't a good option in general(one more thing to fail), more piping, more weight etc.. on and on.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 10:33   #4
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Here is a pic of a remote mount turbo in the M5. I remember reading about it in some other thread, not able to find it now.
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Remote Mounted Turbochargers-m5-remote-turbo.jpg  

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Old 23rd July 2008, 12:03   #5
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No offense, but I feel bad for that M5, that kit is extremely ghetto.

Last edited by HPP : 23rd July 2008 at 12:04. Reason: added the word "extremely" :P
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Old 23rd July 2008, 12:27   #6
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Turbo need pressure of the gas to spool up and not temperature, headers used.
Only advantage of running turbo so far back is that the exhaust temperature is lower compared to, near the header, so the turbine assembly is cooler and hence the air fed to the intercooler is at lower temperature as compared to air in standard setup. also since the intake is far away from the engine bay the ambient temperature is lower than that in the engine bay , hence the density of air supplied to the engine is higher, and so the high Hp ratings.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 12:41   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinar View Post
Turbo need pressure of the gas to spool up and not temperature, headers used.
Only advantage of running turbo so far back is that the exhaust temperature is lower compared to, near the header, so the turbine assembly is cooler and hence the air fed to the intercooler is at lower temperature as compared to air in standard setup. also since the intake is far away from the engine bay the ambient temperature is lower than that in the engine bay , hence the density of air supplied to the engine is higher, and so the high Hp ratings.
I'm not sure where to start(and I don't even know what your first sentence means), but where do you account for the extremely long piping and pressure drop(from turbo to turbo in this application..then onto intercooler)from the turbo to the intercooler? And the temps on the turbine side don't really matter that much, neither do the intake temps into the compressor side of the turbo.. that is what a good intercooler is for(thus no advantage of running in rear). And there is a hot turbo back there.. so the so called ambient air positive isn't really a valid point. And no matter where your turbo is sitting, you can plum an intake pipe to get fresh air if you so wish. I personally have a large K&N filter sitting right on my turbo directly in my extremely hot engine bay.. no issues.. I have a gigantic intercooler.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 12:45   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhilv12 View Post

Of course, remote mounted turbos have disadvantages too, for eg. the temperature of the exhaust gasses will be lower when they reach the turbo.

nikhilv12,

Your understanding is wrong here, in fact having lower exhaust temperatures will increase the life of turbo fan blades, it could also possibly reduce the cost of a turbo as lower cost materials can be used for fan blades and also the electronics inside the turbo charger will be cheaper as it needs to operate at lower temperature.

On the down side you may need a bigger turbo to ensure that air supply is same over the longer distance.

Anyway, thanks for sharing this interesting link.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 12:59   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepaktpatil View Post
nikhilv12,

Your understanding is wrong here, in fact having lower exhaust temperatures will increase the life of turbo fan blades, it could also possibly reduce the cost of a turbo as lower cost materials can be used for fan blades and also the electronics inside the turbo charger will be cheaper as it needs to operate at lower temperature.

On the down side you may need a bigger turbo to ensure that air supply is same over the longer distance.

Anyway, thanks for sharing this interesting link.
I believe he meant the disadvantage being the gases are cooler AND thus moving slower.

Can the lower temps increase the life of the turbo, maybe, but the turbo is built to withstand those high temps in the first place. Most turbo's do not fail due to temps, but to improper installation, or faulty pluming of coolant or oil lines etc(as well as not letting them cool after driving.. with motor idling).. and other non heat related issues.

What "electronics" are in a turbo? None..

A larger turbo is a horrible idea, it will be even laggier then a normal remote mount turbo would be.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 15:00   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPP View Post

What "electronics" are in a turbo? None..
Dear HPP,
I hope you understand the turbocharger design well. I have worked hands on developing a electronics based system for turbochargers and I work for a company that has no. 1 turbocharger brand in its portfolio.

Turbo designs vary and some turbos may be purely mechanical but when I said electronics, I was referring to sensors, boost control solenoid and electrical actuators that are part of a latest turbo designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPP View Post
A larger turbo is a horrible idea, it will be even laggier then a normal remote mount turbo would be.
Here again I commented from the design parameters perspective where if you move the Turbo away from engine, naturally it will need more capacity to pump the same amount of air for the increased distance. So if this increases the turbo lag, then it needs to be addressed in some way and thats where you do the tradeoffs during engineering.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 15:29   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPP View Post
I'm not sure where to start(and I don't even know what your first sentence means), but where do you account for the extremely long piping and pressure drop(from turbo to turbo in this application..then onto intercooler)from the turbo to the intercooler? And the temps on the turbine side don't really matter that much, neither do the intake temps into the compressor side of the turbo.. that is what a good intercooler is for(thus no advantage of running in rear). And there is a hot turbo back there.. so the so called ambient air positive isn't really a valid point. And no matter where your turbo is sitting, you can plum an intake pipe to get fresh air if you so wish. I personally have a large K&N filter sitting right on my turbo directly in my extremely hot engine bay.. no issues.. I have a gigantic intercooler.
Dude, just explained what a turbo needs to spool up, exhaust pressure and not temperature of the exhaust gases, I never said that the system is good or bad, I just said that there are advantages of this system.
If the temperature of the ambient air is lower, than even after compressing this will be lower compared to a normal setup. the intercooler helps further. The pressure in the intake side won't reduce with the length of the pipe only thing is there will be a delay in build up, of pressure before starting,[one will have to ideal for little long]for the system to be at operating pressure.
The temperature of the assembly of the turbo will make a difference, since the intake air will not absorb the temperature from the system, if it is at lower temperature than normal setup.
Intercooler is efficient to do the work of cooling the intake charge, but there is a limit to every setup, why can not we run high boosts with out water injection or water spray [as on subaru and lancer]??
The problem of velocity of gases decreasing with temperature is true, that why the BMW in the picture has insulation on the exhaust. Same way velocity of the intake air [compressed air] will reduce, Than the reverse will be true right [temperature of that air will reduce ].
Last a simple question why does a same engine produce higher HP figures when the car is in colder climate??
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Old 23rd July 2008, 16:30   #12
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Anyone wanting more details about the TT M5, read here:

Twin Turbo M5 [Currency Motors] - Page 5 - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

It is a con job.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 23:22   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepaktpatil View Post
Dear HPP,
I hope you understand the turbocharger design well. I have worked hands on developing a electronics based system for turbochargers and I work for a company that has no. 1 turbocharger brand in its portfolio.

Turbo designs vary and some turbos may be purely mechanical but when I said electronics, I was referring to sensors, boost control solenoid and electrical actuators that are part of a latest turbo designs.



Here again I commented from the design parameters perspective where if you move the Turbo away from engine, naturally it will need more capacity to pump the same amount of air for the increased distance. So if this increases the turbo lag, then it needs to be addressed in some way and thats where you do the tradeoffs during engineering.

I understand turbochargers very well. You are telling me sensors and actuators are located inside the turbo(the comment I was commenting on was "the electronics inside the turbo"..)? If anything they maybe be attached, but I'm guessing measures are being taken to combat heat? Or if on the compressor side, to combat vibration for longevity?

Again, I disagree with the larger turbo comment. If you want to try and combat the effects from the distance/length piping, then you would probably decrease the size of the piping to increase the velocity of the air.. But if you increase the size of the turbo, the lagginess from the remote mounted turbo would just be compounded because inherently larger turbos are already laggier then smaller turbos. I understand what you are trying to say about more volume of air with the larger turbo, but that solution just isn't right for this application.

Also, these systems are laggier for both sides of the piping.. the turbine side, and the compressor side, both are affected by the distances involved with this type of application.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinar View Post
Dude, just explained what a turbo needs to spool up, exhaust pressure and not temperature of the exhaust gases, I never said that the system is good or bad, I just said that there are advantages of this system.
If the temperature of the ambient air is lower, than even after compressing this will be lower compared to a normal setup. the intercooler helps further. The pressure in the intake side won't reduce with the length of the pipe only thing is there will be a delay in build up, of pressure before starting,[one will have to ideal for little long]for the system to be at operating pressure.
The temperature of the assembly of the turbo will make a difference, since the intake air will not absorb the temperature from the system, if it is at lower temperature than normal setup.
Intercooler is efficient to do the work of cooling the intake charge, but there is a limit to every setup, why can not we run high boosts with out water injection or water spray [as on subaru and lancer]??
The problem of velocity of gases decreasing with temperature is true, that why the BMW in the picture has insulation on the exhaust. Same way velocity of the intake air [compressed air] will reduce, Than the reverse will be true right [temperature of that air will reduce ].
Last a simple question why does a same engine produce higher HP figures when the car is in colder climate??
The difference of the outlet air of a turbocharger with lower ambient air temps is reasonably negligible because they are heated up regardless when being compressed within the turbocharger. Will it change the temp a little bit.. yes maybe, but enough to care about, no.

And high boost(over 20psi or so), needs more octane or water in your case(or other types of chemicals people use), is to combat detonation. The proper way to run high boost is with the right fuel, other types of injections are a band aid in my opinion, and just one more thing/system to go wrong/fail.

There are only limits with every system if they are not built up properly. Myself and many other builders do our best to over engineer the intercooling system in order to give us repeatable intake air temps run after run whether on the street or the track and no matter what the ambient air temps are. Again, if there are limits on a setup.. it needs to be upgraded.

BTW, if that BMW builder was interested in keeping the temps up and in turn keeping the velocity up.. don't you think they should have wrapped the entire exhaust system directly from the headers to the turbo?.. Generally when you look at a picture like this and you see wrapping on the pipes they made(and in areas that make no sense really), it's because they are covering up shabby workmanship/fabrication skills. If it were me, the charge piping going to the intercooler would have been made of aluminum and not wrapped at all.. this would help with the heat dissipation and take advantage of the long piping(may as well get something out of the stupid design).(Not to mention soo many other things I notice with this kit.. it is crap from start to finish).

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraghava View Post
Anyone wanting more details about the TT M5, read here:

Twin Turbo M5 [Currency Motors] - Page 5 - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

It is a con job.
AH! I am happy this was not happily accepted by the BMW crowd. Good to see owners recognize poor quality, poor design, and poor execution. I'm happy after reading that.

Last edited by aah78 : 24th July 2008 at 01:29. Reason: Posts merged. Please use the EDIT and MULTI-QUOTE buttons.
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