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Old 3rd September 2008, 11:25   #1
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Default Carbon Deposits - Any commercial solution ?

Because of the impurities in petroleum-based fuels, carbon deposits form along the surfaces of the combustion chamber, which will not combust at temperatures lower than 600oC. This becomes a problem because the surfaces of the combustion chamber stay cooler than 600oC, which means that these deposits will not burn off by themselves. These deposits are the problem. They are what cause your fuel mileage to drop over the life of your vehicle, they are what cause you to have to use higher octane fuels, they are the primary cause of automotive emissions, they are what cause your motor oil to get dirtier faster, they are what plug up your fuel injectors, and they are what cause a decline in overall engine performance.

Below is a diagram of a combustion chamber, where as you can see, the areas around the Piston Tops and Cylinder walls are relatively cooler. These are the areas where impurities tend to build up and form deposits.
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Is there a commercially available product that tackles this particular problem?i.e clear out the carbon deposits that do not burn out during combustion and remain stuck to the piston. Ive seen ones that " avoid" adhesion(Magnatec oil) but not yet seen anything that cures the adhesion .
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Old 3rd September 2008, 12:41   #2
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Some of the products that are advertised to remove carbon Deposits:
1. SEAFOAM
2. BG 244/44K
3. Bardahl Tunes
4. OWS 360

I have tried some of the above products and I am going to open the combustion chamber of my SAFARI(?). So let me take some time to show you whether they have cleaned the carbons or not!
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Old 3rd September 2008, 12:56   #3
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The efficacy of most such in-situ cleaners is highly suspect.
Once carbon deposits have formed, they are impossible to remove in entirety without manual/physical cleaning.
Chemicals are to be avoided particularly if piston crowns are made of alloys containing aluminium. Hot water and a brush is the recommended procedure.

Last edited by anupmathur : 3rd September 2008 at 12:58.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 14:34   #4
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If its a carb version cleaning can be done with water injection by removing the air filter

Engine running - allowing water to enter into carb by pouring or through EGR vaccum.

the results are great. real terms its like more smoother engine, more responsive to throttle kind of racy. NO INCREASE OR DECREASE IN FE.

increase in bhp or torque i dont know and not dynoed.

C A U T I O N: TO BE DONE AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!
THERE IS A WAY TO DO THIS IF YOU NEED THE METHOD THEN LET ME KNOW.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 16:06   #5
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Quote:
THERE IS A WAY TO DO THIS IF YOU NEED THE METHOD THEN LET ME KNOW.
Yes, Please explain it for us. I own a Safari which is always ready to suicide.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 17:12   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibm_jennifer View Post
Yes, Please explain it for us. I own a Safari which is always ready to suicide.
is your Safari Petrol version with Carb

Diesels cant be done this way different setup thats why.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 17:18   #7
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Quote:
is your Safari Petrol version with Carb
No, its a Diesel.

Quote:
Diesels cant be done this way different setup thats why.
How, please explain!
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Old 3rd September 2008, 19:06   #8
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Brother, tell us about the petrol carbs as well.
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Old 3rd September 2008, 19:29   #9
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Guys,

Check this out:

Water Injection

Cheers,

Rajan
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Old 4th September 2008, 01:06   #10
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Ive just cut/paste the quotes from each product line as mentioned and given my opinion on each.

SEAFOAM

"When valve lifter noise is apparent or piston rings seem to be sticking this is often due to dirty and gummed up oil passages, varnished lifters and buildup of gum, varnish and carbon in the piston ring areas.

Your service technician can offer a SEA FOAM MOTOR TREATMENT that will clean sticky lifters and free sticky rings. By doing this treatment you will be able to determine if there is a varnish problem or a mechanical problem."

My opinion/Reply :
Italics show that the product manufacturer does not quote " removal/clean(or whatever word) of the carbon deposits" although he mentions about the issue as a problem, IMHO ,he's only covering his bases when people look for solutions although he aint offering it in totality.



BG 244

" BG 244 quickly and effectively cleans diesel fuel injectors. It removes carbon deposits from combustion chambers, restores performance, smooths engine idle and helps prevent costly repairs. In only a few short miles of driving, engine response is restored! One quart (946 mL) of BG 244 treats 20-40 gallons (75-150 Liters) of diesel fuel. To maintain fuel system cleanliness and engine performance, add BG 244 to fuel tank at 7,500 to 9,000 mile (12,00014,500 km) intervals. Catalytic converter and oxygen sensor safe. This diesel fuel additive complies with the Federal low-sulfur content requirements for use in diesel motor vehicles."

My opinion/Reply :
What are the limitations of a carbon deposit cleaner that render it useful only on diesel engines ?

Bardahl Tunes

Why diesel de-carbonisation is required?
Carbon deposits accumulate over time in the entire diesel fuel system, including the fuel lines, injector pump, fuel injectors and combustion chambers. This causes rough idle, vibration at idle, loss of power, decreased mileage, increased smoke, slowed throttle response.
Solution:
Decarbonisation process is designed to remove these deposits
Resulting in
  • Better fuel economy
  • Better combustion & increased power
  • Faster starting & warm-up
  • Reduced emissions
  • Reduced injector & pump wear, thereby resulting in savings in maintenance costs
It is approved for low sulphur diesel fuel and EGR equipped diesel engines
Why petrol fuel and air Decarbonisation is required?
Carbon deposits accumulate on intake valves, injectors, ports, fuel injectors and combustion chambers causing loss of power, rough idle, hesitation, misfire, pinging, knocking, mileage and hard starting.
Solution:
Decarbonisation process helps
  • Clean fuel injectors
  • Clean throttle body
  • Clean plenum and air-intake
  • Clean intake valves and ports
  • Remove combustion chamber deposits
  • In maintaining correct balance of fuel and air in system
Resulting in
  • Comprehensive clean-up of combustion chamber, induction system & fuel injector deposits
  • Improved fuel economy
  • Improved Engine performance & response
  • Reduced emissions
  • Increased Power & acceleration
  • Smooth starts, idles and quieter runs
My opinion/Reply :
Italics once again point towards approval granted for diesel engines but the same line/quote or stamp of guarantee is not given after the "petrol fuel and air Decarbonisation" section.

As Anupmathur adds
"
The efficacy of most such in-situ cleaners is highly suspect.
Once carbon deposits have formed, they are impossible to remove in entirety without manual/physical cleaning."

Further to this, as per initial description on carbon deposits (start of thread),It describes that carbon deposits only burn or dissolve at temp above 600deg but the temp at the piston drops to 200deg due to the debris.How is this issue tackled unless the inherent combustion properties of the fuel or the carbon deposits are altered(thereby reducing /changing power characteristics of the engine)

OWS 360

Modern cars running on engine control units (ECU) and fuel injections are tuned for high performance but often only driven at less than half the engine's potential due to the start and stop nature of city driving. This type of city driving increases carbon buildup at the intake valves and injectors. Dirty injectors provide poor spray patterns causing poor combustion, loss of power and high fuel consumption.
The OWS 360 Gasoline and Diesel Treatment cleans the injectors and intake valves to restore them to peak efficiency, giving better fuel economy and improved throttle response.

My opinion/Reply :
OWS 210 's description uses the term "
Cleans away loose carbon and sludge buildup while remaining inert to engine internals, such as metal surfaces and rubber seals/gaskets"

The term " loose carbon" in itself does not speciafy deposits that adhere inside the combustion chamber and further to this , the same level of description is not used (word "carbon") when explaining the workings of OWS 360(reead the italics).Is there a reason for this omission ?? i dont think its conincidential as this may not be a remedy for carbon deposits.

Taking all into consideration , i feel Bardahl Tunes has got the backing/approval from an automobile manufacturer in india ( TATA ) and hence could and might have qualitative results to suggest their product feasibility.

The rest , i resign to think they are speculative sales tactics of ticking all the right boxes for a desperate consumer.
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Old 4th September 2008, 01:45   #11
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Well done absynthguzzler. I agree with your comments that's why I am going to open my combustion chamber to clean up the carbon deposits manually, even if I have tried above products.

And anyway Bardhal/BG has separate products for petrol engines as Bardhal Powertune, BG 210 & 208.
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Old 4th September 2008, 07:41   #12
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If a few people agree with what i say, i might just end up blabbering about something new that is not commercial product yet but gets the desired results(supposedly) and tackles the problem area of carbon deposits.

Team-bhp will be the first to know about this(in india). Would be 3 months before patent and TM are registered completely all over the world.Might even go to the extent of IP'ing a line that says " removes all carbon deposits" and makes sure the competition doesnt use it for ever ,lol
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Old 4th September 2008, 15:32   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absynthguzzler View Post
If a few people agree with what i say, i might just end up blabbering about something new that is not commercial product yet but gets the desired results(supposedly) and tackles the problem area of carbon deposits.

Team-bhp will be the first to know about this(in india). Would be 3 months before patent and TM are registered completely all over the world.Might even go to the extent of IP'ing a line that says " removes all carbon deposits" and makes sure the competition doesnt use it for ever ,lol
so what is it? refering to petrol engines right?
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Old 9th September 2008, 09:00   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver_shadow View Post
so what is it? refering to petrol engines right?

for all types of engines.
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Old 9th September 2008, 13:23   #15
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There's a wide range of engine treatments / flushes that will do away with carbon deposits. Wasn't there also a "carbon clean" machine found at authorised service stations? Are they still around? More importantly, was the treatment effective?
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