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Old 29th January 2009, 14:44   #76
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I remember seeing Genuine Maruti Oil at a BP pump (I think it was Shell) which was SF while the SG regular oil was marginally cheaper same price. I just check the API rating and decide. I remember in the early days of Pennzoil in India I found it was being sold as the best while only API-SF while I could get Castrol (sorry for the brand name) SG for a slightly lower price. Nowadays, you have API SL (mineral), SM (semi-synth) and SN (full synth). It also tells you how close the oils now are.

There is a school of thought that Diesel Oils (esp. Delo/Dalvac) are far superior to the Petrol Oils. Our friend Gurkha is a firm believer in this. I will like to see the API S<x> ratings of the diesel oils before accepting this in toto. Actually diesel oils are very similar to petrol oils but with a higher detergent content.
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Old 29th January 2009, 16:19   #77
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Originally Posted by aerohit View Post
What about Castrol Tranmission oil?

I am running normal Maruti (shell) oil in my swift, but dont really like the way gears feel.
Do you think it is something that can be improved by changing the oil brand? Or maybe its a mechanical problem?

I rely on the MASS to change the transmission oil. Last year I asked them what they used, and I was told its made by IOC. Anyway, never had a problem with the gears of my Esteem. They were and are pretty slick. Dunno if there can be any "improvement" as I'm not much inclined to change brands (cus of mixing issues) and also, I'd need to buy the oil from the market and then go to a garage, etc.

Shell should be a perfectly good option (are you sure they are using the right grade?). Thats far more important! Dont rely on the mech for that... esp. if its not an authorised place!). Its upto you if you want to try changing...

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I remember seeing Genuine Maruti Oil at a BP pump (I think it was Shell) which was SF while the SG regular oil was marginally cheaper same price. I just check the API rating and decide. I remember in the early days of Pennzoil in India I found it was being sold as the best while only API-SF while I could get Castrol (sorry for the brand name) SG for a slightly lower price. Nowadays, you have API SL (mineral), SM (semi-synth) and SN (full synth). It also tells you how close the oils now are.

There is a school of thought that Diesel Oils (esp. Delo/Dalvac) are far superior to the Petrol Oils. Our friend Gurkha is a firm believer in this. I will like to see the API S<x> ratings of the diesel oils before accepting this in toto. Actually diesel oils are very similar to petrol oils but with a higher detergent content.
Well, relying on the API ratings to choose oils is a pretty dicy thing too. The newer API ratings have lesser anti wear additives like Zn, P, etc. If your manual recommends lower API ratings, it MIGHT not be the best idea to buy the oil with the highest API ratings. For a recent car, you can ignore about this issue.

And yes, its not a good idea to use an exclusive diesel oil in a gasolene engine. Better to at least use an oil marked both "S" and "C".
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Old 29th January 2009, 16:33   #78
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I am afraid all new oils come only as SL, SM or SN. The old ratings are discontinued. You can check on the SAE site to confirm. In any case I do not remember seeing anything lower that SF for a long time. SG, SJ and the rest are essentially SF with bits and bobs added. So may be going to the 3 grade system is not such a big issue.
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Old 29th January 2009, 16:50   #79
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Diesel oils, specially HDEO like Delvac and Delo exceed all petrol rated oils, the Delo is hydrocracked and rival synthetic performance at less than half the cost. Diesel oils, specially HDEO have way higher shear strength than other oils, diesel or petrol. The API C class in itself is higher as you can see Mobil-I which is the champ of petrol world is only rated at CD whereas both Delo and Delvac are rated CH. As for additives, its true due to pollution issues, zinc has been reduced in some of the formulation but then as per VOA, moly has been increased significantly. So go right ahead and start using diesel rated HDEO like Delo 400 or Delvac MX/Super and your engine will thank you for miles to come.
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Old 29th January 2009, 17:17   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I am afraid all new oils come only as SL, SM or SN. The old ratings are discontinued. You can check on the SAE site to confirm. In any case I do not remember seeing anything lower that SF for a long time. SG, SJ and the rest are essentially SF with bits and bobs added. So may be going to the 3 grade system is not such a big issue.
When I last looked, some of the API classes which are indicated as discontinued are still very much available in the Indian market.

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SG, SJ and the rest are essentially SF with bits and bobs added
I don't think its half that simple. IIRC, reduction in anti wear additives started from SJ. And that takes a whole lot different additive package!!

This topic is even more relevant to motorcycles.

Bottomline is that a higher API class dosen't necessarily mean its a better oil. Safest bet is to use the API classes mentioned in the manual...
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Old 30th January 2009, 00:21   #81
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Hmmm... totally unacceptable on Hondas part. If the dealer refuses to use the oil you want (esp. after warranty), then I'd just go to some other garage and get the job done. Actually thats what I do as of now, as I'd want to get it done in front of me.

Why are you calling Idemitsu crap??? Is it really THAT bad??
This is one of the many things that pissed me off about the Honda dealer in this town (you know who). I just continued to go there because the wkshp mgr did exactly what I told him to do with my car. But as time went on, that wasnt good enuff because I ran into other issues with the dealer.


Idemitsu isnt really crap. It is the OEM fill for most Honda & Toyota cars in Japan and India. Just that I believe I can get better oil for the money which is about Rs 170/litre.

Rgds,
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Old 30th January 2009, 01:00   #82
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
This is one of the many things that pissed me off about the Honda dealer in this town (you know who). I just continued to go there because the wkshp mgr did exactly what I told him to do with my car. But as time went on, that wasnt good enuff because I ran into other issues with the dealer.


Idemitsu isnt really crap. It is the OEM fill for most Honda & Toyota cars in Japan and India. Just that I believe I can get better oil for the money which is about Rs 170/litre.

Rgds,
No experience with Honda dealers... but all that sounds really sad.

Idemitsu - I think you have a case of further grass is greener. You are just fed up of it and need a change... though it is prehaps doing its job quite well (and at a cheaper cost compared to Castrol ).
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Old 30th January 2009, 08:40   #83
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Originally Posted by simply_sunny001 View Post
Do they stock other things like engine flush etc.
not sure, have never asked for it. But I guess he would, was well stocked with all types of lubes.
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Old 30th January 2009, 10:17   #84
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Originally Posted by Raccoon View Post
I don't think its half that simple. IIRC, reduction in anti wear additives started from SJ. And that takes a whole lot different additive package!!
A small correction. SJ is where the semi-synths came in so obviously one can expect SJ to be better than SL! In any case Indian manufacturers sticking with now discontinued ratings tells its own story.

@Gurkha. Welcome to this discussion. I think you have highlighted my point in the S<x> and C<y> rating question. What is the S<x> rating of Delo/Delvac. You have pointed out that for Diesels Mobil-1 carries a not so brilliant rating, the reverse may be also true when you see the petrol ratings of diesel oils. Also, I accept that diesel oils have a far rougher time than petrol oils, and are also expected to last far longer.
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Old 30th January 2009, 10:56   #85
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Just found the answer to my question. The site is

http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/...a_gasoline_eng


Mobil 1 formulas will deliver everything you need for your gasoline engine. In fact, during development, tests are run in both gasoline and diesel engines to demonstrate the outstanding performance of Mobil 1.

Mobil Delvac 1 ESP, which is designed for heavy-duty diesels, meets most diesel engine oil specifications, and also meets API SM certification. And because Mobil Delvac 1 ESP operates in a different environment – diesel engines run longer, generate soot and run hotter, it contains different types and amounts of additives than Mobil 1. Even so, Mobil Delvac 1 ESP still meets API SM certification for gasoline engines, and because of its high performance, we would expect it to do a good job of protecting your gasoline engine.

If you use your gasoline vehicle in "heavy-duty" service, Mobil Delvac 1 ESP will provide many benefits compared to conventional oils. When compared to Mobil 1 performance, those benefits may not be as obvious, and in fact, Mobil 1 would be expected to outperform Mobil Delvac 1 in many gasoline applications. [SIZE=-2](Updated April 2008)[/SIZE]

i.e. Mobil 1 Petrol is possibly better than Delvac for petrol engines.
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Old 30th January 2009, 21:30   #86
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Originally Posted by Raccoon View Post
No experience with Honda dealers... but all that sounds really sad.

Idemitsu - I think you have a case of further grass is greener. You are just fed up of it and need a change... though it is prehaps doing its job quite well (and at a cheaper cost compared to Castrol ).
You are probably right...it may be familiarity breeding contempt. I've been with Idemitsu OEM oil across my ownership experience with 2 Jap brands. Does the job....but I know I can get better oil which gets me a bit bugged.

In all my ownership experiences, 2 mfrs rock for their sales and service...Maruti and Toyota in that order. Abt Honda...less said the better. Read up on Honda dealership experiences if you wish on this forum.

Rgds,
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Old 31st January 2009, 09:32   #87
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Idemitsu is far better than Castrol and has consistent quality so its quite safe to use it. However for diesel, I would only use Delo 400 or Delvac MX. Btw, all UOA done have revealed both Delo 400 and Delvac MX performing same as Delvac-1, only in extremely cold conditions Delvac-1 holds the edge in cold flow due to its synthetic composition, otherwise in wear numbers and TBN, Delo 400 and Delvac-1 are fairly matched. All the petrol engines where I have put Delo 400 are performing outstandingly well and have very clean insides due to the detergency. Some old petrol engines have miraculously regained compression when Delo 400 was used regularly.

Sgiitk, Delo 400 meets or exceeds SL specs for petrol engines. Mobil is just doing marketing bull as UOA reveals Delvac1 outperforming M1 in petrol engines by miles. Even mineral based Delo 400 outperforms Mobil1 when not used in extreme cold conditions. Don't listen to marketing bull, check UOA, thats the final revelation. Racers all across US use Delo 400 in their vehicles and the only reason is that for a fraction of cost, it outperforms all synthetics. The roller cam in early Chevys were prone to wear out quickly when raced and Delo 400 fixed that problem. The fact that I use Delo on my 14500 rpm RC45 as well tells you how good it is in high shear conditions. The UOA was brilliant on the RC45 after a hard day on track.

Last edited by Gurkha : 31st January 2009 at 09:41.
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Old 31st January 2009, 14:24   #88
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
Idemitsu is far better than Castrol and has consistent quality so its quite safe to use it.
There is one more reason to believe that its good quality stuff - it seems they make quite a few OEM oils. For eg. they make oil for HMSI and Hero Honda. For my CBZ-x, the warranty is for 3 years or 40,000 km. Now if engine wear, etc., happens due to the oil then Hero Honda will be spending quite a bit on warranty claims from thousands of customers! Besides that, they will loose the good-will and reputation that they have.

That said, it probably still dosen't mean its the best oil available...

Same would apply to cars...

Gurkha, what do you think about using a diesel-only oil for 2 stroke transmissions? Issues is TVS used to recommend Castrol CRB, Deusol, etc for the purpose. I'v always used CRB for my Suzuki Shogun, but at that time, IIRC, it was API SC/CC. Now its a diesel exclusive oil rated CF-4. So I keep wondering if its still the best thing I can use for the purpose. I even wrote to TVS, but got no good reply - they just reffered it to their local dealer who called me, had no good explaination and just asked me to use Motul with Bardhal oil additive.

Last edited by Raccoon : 31st January 2009 at 14:30.
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Old 31st January 2009, 16:12   #89
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Originally Posted by Raccoon View Post
There is one more reason to believe that its good quality stuff - it seems they make quite a few OEM oils. For eg. they make oil for HMSI and Hero Honda. For my CBZ-x, the warranty is for 3 years or 40,000 km. Now if engine wear, etc., happens due to the oil then Hero Honda will be spending quite a bit on warranty claims from thousands of customers! Besides that, they will loose the good-will and reputation that they have.

That said, it probably still dosen't mean its the best oil available...

Same would apply to cars...

Gurkha, what do you think about using a diesel-only oil for 2 stroke transmissions? Issues is TVS used to recommend Castrol CRB, Deusol, etc for the purpose. I'v always used CRB for my Suzuki Shogun, but at that time, IIRC, it was API SC/CC. Now its a diesel exclusive oil rated CF-4. So I keep wondering if its still the best thing I can use for the purpose. I even wrote to TVS, but got no good reply - they just reffered it to their local dealer who called me, had no good explaination and just asked me to use Motul with Bardhal oil additive.
I have used Delo 400 in RD350, RX-135 so by all means, use it for your 2 stroke tranny where extra shear strenght of Delo will come in real handy.
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Old 31st January 2009, 17:22   #90
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Errr... I was talking about Castrol CRB 20W40! Might be better to stick to that, since thats was TVS's original recommendation.

Is Delo available in India? Any idea of price and packaging (cus I need only 900 ml).

What I wonder is how good current 4 stroke bike oils would be in 2 stroke trannies compared to CRB...
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