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Old 8th October 2009, 00:52   #61
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Originally Posted by aka_iitd View Post
Once my coolant was drained out due to minor accident. I was forced to use water as i was on highway. After driving for 5 mins i can hear boiling sound and steam coming out of my bonnet . I filled thrice before i landed up in petrol pump to get a coolant. Beware water in this condition is very hot
as thad said, you needed a repair, not a coolant additive

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Originally Posted by johnda View Post
My OHC is almost drained of the coolant in the tank. infact there is no more than 20/25ml. I was using the temp gauge to tell me if I'm overheating or if there is any troubleshooting. Am I doing the right thing? I have 1500Km for my next service. Should I just go ahead and Fill some locally? if Yes, then what do I need to watch for? brand etc.
a blockage in the cooling system may fool your temp gauge to think it's all working fine. having no coolant in reservoir (check when both hot and cold) essentially means there is not enough coolant in the rest of the system.

you should have the reservoir level go from L to H once your engine gets hot.

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Originally Posted by ritedhawan View Post
A the water is not only providing cooling effect but also has to do the job of absorbing heat --a job should have been done by coolant, but since coolant in not mixed, in this case-- this in turn heats the water above its boiling point , result : steam coming out. I would partly agree, that the addition of coolant does to an extend increase the boiling point of water.
@ ritedhawan, yes, the water boils to kep itself at 100C. coolant additive does not stop that. it's the pressure that holds the water fro evaporating (and eventually cooling down). very similar to a pressure cooker, where we hold the water at high pressure thereby building high temperature.

The original point of additives was to prevent freezing in cold countries. then they started adding anti corrosion agents. And with the consumerist society ready to buy anything, you can soon have fragrances, cure for male pattern baldness and what not in the coolant additives LOL.

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Old 8th October 2009, 09:44   #62
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Hi Racoon,

Yes, you are correct in saying the issue is not significant. When the MSM guys told me this after the fill-up, I was not convinced. I am as devious as they come and always cross check what one MASS guy says with another. So off I went to the work shop of ABT Maruti who sold the car to me, and narrated the matter to the works manager there. He also said the same thing, that it will suffice to flush/re-fill at the 20K KM/2 year service.

Significantly, even when I offerred to pay for the coolant change, both of them persuaded me it was not necessary at this stage and not to waste money. As for believing in big names, yes, you have to trust somebody. Especially when he declines a payment which the customer is willing to make!

Last edited by Gansan : 8th October 2009 at 09:48.
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Old 8th October 2009, 09:57   #63
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As far as i know, it is the coolant which is an incredible conveyor of heat . As the coolant + water mixture goes around the engine block and head and reaches radiator, in contact with the incoming air the coolant releases the heat it had gathered.Water provides the cooling effect once the coolant has absorbed the heat during its route along the engine block . ......
This is the most amazing theory I have heard!
But....something is not quite right about it!
Thad has given an answer that seems more like how things work!
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Old 8th October 2009, 13:50   #64
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Hi Thad

Actually neither the water nor the glycol is the coolant. The correct technical term would be heat transfer fluid (which both are, either separately or mixed).

That is, the fluid aborbs the heat from the head, then travels to the collector tank of the radiator and while passing through tubes it finally transfers that heat to the fins which are then cooled by cold air. In other words , instead of cooling the fins on the cylinder block of an air-passage ducted engine, the air cools the fins on the radiator of a water passage ducted engine.

The use of the term heat transfer fluid is actually quite useful (!) as it describes more accurately the process taking place. For example, on cold mornings, the water absorbing the combustion heat is circulated within the block and is used to WARM up the lower sections of the engine (when the thermostat remains closed ), thus bringing all the parts of the engine quickly up to working temperature and clearances.

BTW, I did mention that the original Spitfire engine was a pure ethylene glycol engine. Come to Bangalore and I'll show you a Merlin engine with that coolant (!). Or if you pass by the Biggin Hil aerodrome the next time you're in Blighty, check the Spit parked at the gates. I lived near the field, (famous for its WWII Hurricane base ) for a while and passed by quite often.

Keep well.
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Old 8th October 2009, 14:06   #65
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Originally Posted by proton View Post
Actually neither the water nor the glycol is the coolant. .....
I dare say you're splitting hair now!
The primary function being cooling resulted in it being called coolant!

Does anyone refer to a room heater as an air conditioner? And that is what it is, in fact.
We should also be referring to our air conditioners as heat-exchange devices.
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Old 8th October 2009, 16:07   #66
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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post

@ ritedhawan, yes, the water boils to kep itself at 100C. coolant additive does not stop that. it's the pressure that holds the water fro evaporating (and eventually cooling down). very similar to a pressure cooker, where we hold the water at high pressure thereby building high temperature.

The original point of additives was to prevent freezing in cold countries. then they started adding anti corrosion agents. And with the consumerist society ready to buy anything, you can soon have fragrances, cure for male pattern baldness and what not in the coolant additives LOL.
Errr... not quite right. Addition of antifreeze in water will alter both the BP and the FP. To split hair its more accurate to say that the water+antifreeze solution, which is now the heat exchange fluid, will have a higher BP and lower FP compared to water. The increased pressure further elevates the BP. Hence both the antifreeze and the pressure contribute towards increasing the BP.

Last edited by Raccoon : 8th October 2009 at 16:08.
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Old 8th October 2009, 16:35   #67
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As regards cooling capacity, i.e. heat transfer capacity. Water beats all coolants. Many many years ago Autocar UK did a test. Essentially they would put a wire in the liquid, and jack up the current until it fused. Water blew the pants off all others.

Coolant is added in India to protect the system from rust, corrosion, etc. and also to lube the water pump.

Coolants raising the boiling point is not critical. They have come from the west and are often called Anti Freeze. I think the name says it all.
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Old 8th October 2009, 16:45   #68
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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
The original point of additives was to prevent freezing in cold countries. then they started adding anti corrosion agents. And with the consumerist society ready to buy anything, you can soon have fragrances, cure for male pattern baldness and what not in the coolant additives LOL.
We all know why some men buy b-i-g cars, now we know they need the right additive as well! Expect it to be featured in the regular spams soon!
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Old 8th October 2009, 18:34   #69
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Originally Posted by Raccoon View Post
Errr... not quite right. Addition of antifreeze in water will alter both the BP and the FP.
it may eventually do that. There are a lot of things it will change to pure water, FP, BP, viscosity, color, smell, poisoning, specific gravity, specific heat and so on.

But the cooling system will do just fine with pure water at it's native boiling point.
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Old 8th October 2009, 18:42   #70
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Anupmathur wrote:
I dare say you're splitting hair now!
The primary function being cooling resulted in it being called coolant!

HaHa! But I did show a scenario where the water acted as a heating media, during engine warm up!

Anupmathur wrote:
Does anyone refer to a room heater as an air conditioner? And that is what it is, in fact.
We should also be referring to our air conditioners as heat-exchange devices.

You know what the primary characteristic of a heat exchange device is, right? Providing more surface area for speeding up the rate at which heat is dissipated. BTW, heat can flow from the water to cooling fin and back again to water, as in ship fresh water to sea water heat exchanger systems.

sgiitk wrote:
As regards cooling capacity, i.e. heat transfer capacity. Water beats all coolants. Many many years ago Autocar UK did a test. Essentially they would put a wire in the liquid, and jack up the current until it fused. Water blew the pants off all others.

...

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We can trace water’s high specific heat, like many of its other properties, to hydrogen bonding. Heat must be absorbed in order to break hydrogen bonds, and heat is released when hydrogen bonds form. A calorie of heat causes a relatively small change in the temperature because must of the heat energy is used to disrupt hydrogen bonds before the water molecules can begin moving faster. And when the temperature of water drops slightly, many additional hydrogen bonds form, releasing a considerable amount of energy in the form of heat.

...

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Water is one of the few substances that are less dense as a solid than as a liquid. While other materials contract when they solidify, water expands. The cause of this exotic behavior is, once again, hydrogen bonding. At temperatures above 4º C, water behaves like other liquids, expanding as it warms and contracting as it cools. Water begins to freeze when its molecules are no longer moving vigorously enough to break their hydrogen bonds. As the temperature reaches 0º C, the water becomes locked into a crystalline lattice, each water molecule bonded to the maximum of four partners. The hydrogen bonds keep the molecules far enough apart to make ice about 10% less dense than liquid water at 4º C. When ice absorbs enough heat for its temperature to increase to above 0º C, hydrogen bonds between molecules are disrupted. As the crystal collapses, the ice melts, and molecules are free to slip closer together. Water reaches it greatest density at 4º C and then begins to expand as the molecules move faster.

Reference: Specific Heat

I love this forum. The PDI tip saved my bacon when I went to collect my car. And all this info helps us to be prepared when we are faced with springing for repairs.

i wish there was a forum where we could get info about the unnecessary procedures and tests the medical profession puts us through when we go for a check up. Wouldn't that be a doctor's nightmare... apologies to all straight shooting doctors reading this post.
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Old 8th October 2009, 22:55   #71
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i wish there was a forum where we could get info about the unnecessary procedures and tests the medical profession puts us through when we go for a check up. Wouldn't that be a doctor's nightmare... apologies to all straight shooting doctors reading this post.
it all boils down to supply (read money) and demand. if you had all the access and money, you would end up getting 100s of tests yourself every time you sneezed.

True to your handle, you are positively charged ( couldn't help that one).
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Old 9th October 2009, 00:21   #72
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boils down?

Be very, very careful when you remove that radiator cap!

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Old 9th October 2009, 11:55   #73
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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
it all boils down to supply (read money) and demand. if you had all the access and money, you would end up getting 100s of tests yourself every time you sneezed.

True to your handle, you are positively charged ( couldn't help that one).
Haha! Actually, handle came from my very positive experience using a rental Proton:

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Forget the corals as this will invole a whole day trip to Pulau Payar, so I would suggest that you skip the sightseeing trip, hire yourself a car attthe airport (RM50 - RM 80 per day, thats about 70 - 100 rupees) & just take a nice leisurely drive around the island, not forgetting a trip up to the top of Gunung raya. if, as your tag suggests, you are from India then you will think that you have died & gone to heaven as driving on Langkawi is stress free, leisurely & above all, a pleasure.

Reference:Trip To Langkawi - Langkawi Message Board - TripAdvisor

Bike and car rental was as easy as in Goa: no one even asked for driving licence!
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Old 9th October 2009, 12:34   #74
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Originally Posted by ritedhawan View Post
As far as i know, it is the coolant which is an incredible conveyor of heat . As the coolant + water mixture goes around the engine block and head and reaches radiator, in contact with the incoming air the coolant releases the heat it had gathered.Water provides the cooling effect once the coolant has absorbed the heat during its route along the engine block . A car driven with only water in radiator, runs the risk of boiling that water to such an extent that it turns into steam and thus back-flow from reservoir, because without coolant in the water, the water is not only providing cooling effect but also has to do the job of absorbing heat --a job should have been done by coolant, but since coolant in not mixed, in this case-- this in turn heats the water above its boiling point , result : steam coming out. I would partly agree, that the addition of coolant does to an extend increase the boiling point of water.

Also, water being corrosive, the addition of coolant acts as an anti-corrosive. Another benefit of adding coolant with water.
+1 Glycol has higher boiling point than water and mixes very well with water.It is slightly oilish and could improve lubrication of the components in its path. Also modern engines are made of aluminium alloy which is easly eaten away by the minarels in the water.

Maruthi recommands 30/70 mixture of coolant and water. I prepare the coolant mixture and top up the coolant expansion bottle myself when needed. BTW I collect the water when my fridge is defrosted and use this water for topping up Battery and preparing coolant.
You don't use 100% coolant in the radiator because the boiling point of coolant is much higher than the coolant mixture and your engine will be running at a much higher temperature.

Last edited by sudharma : 9th October 2009 at 12:36. Reason: spelling correction
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Old 9th October 2009, 12:46   #75
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@sudarma: What we call coolant is called Anti-Freeze in the rest of the world. The best ratio is about 63% Anti Freeze where the freezing point f the mixture is below -50C.

You can refer to

Don't Fill Her Up with Antifreeze, Alaska Science Forum


As for the mixture in India we have to look at the best ratio for minimum Glycol and adequate protection from corrosion, etc. wich appears to be about 30%> Hnece 1:2 is a good easy ratio to remember.
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