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Old 28th October 2008, 09:56   #31
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No amount of convincing will make the naysayers believe. They have supreme abilities and overconfidence and it takes them a real life experience on the contrary to prove themselves wrong.

World over, people have realized the importance of ABS, but here people argue about being in total (out of) control. Pity, I should say. So let the non-ABS folks do their simulations, shall we?
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Old 28th October 2008, 10:24   #32
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Its not possible as a human being cannot detect wheel lock on all the wheels separately in miliseconds and maintain same deceleration force on each wheel by releasing each brake and maintaining brake pressure on each wheel individually,that to multiple times a second.
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Old 28th October 2008, 16:42   #33
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Originally Posted by Shashank.A View Post
I saw a documentary on Discovery/National Geographic Channel, the name has slipped of my mind, however in that they actually test ABS and non ABS vehicles on slippery surfaces. And ABS reduced the braking distance by a HUGE margin.

IT should, else the whole point of having ABS is pointless.

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Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
Its not possible as a human being cannot detect wheel lock on all the wheels separately in miliseconds and maintain same deceleration force on each wheel by releasing each brake and maintaining brake pressure on each wheel individually,that to multiple times a second.
Well, guess no one is actually trying to detect wheel lock in milliseconds etc..
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Old 28th October 2008, 20:48   #34
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
The issue is not whether we can match the speed of ABS braking and releasing the brakes, but whether we as drivers can try hard braking - releasing the brake etc to gain control. i.e simulate the functionality of ABS in non ABS cars as the title suggests!
Headers has got it bang on!! The question was more to do with, whether we can gain control by merely simulating the functionality and not doing exactly what an ABS does on an Non ABS car!

As already said earlier, I do not advocate the non-usage of ABS etc, as safety is of prime importance in automobiles.
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Old 30th November 2008, 12:17   #35
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Originally Posted by kuttapan View Post
No amount of convincing will make the naysayers believe. They have supreme abilities and overconfidence and it takes them a real life experience on the contrary to prove themselves wrong.

World over, people have realized the importance of ABS, but here people argue about being in total (out of) control. Pity, I should say. So let the non-ABS folks do their simulations, shall we?
Dont want to rob myself of any driving pleasure,Even if it involves braking.
And no amount of convincing will convince the 'oh i want ABS' loving folks to get this point either.Supreme Abilities,maybe yes.When u dont have something in your car, U find ways best to be really good at what you have.
To each his own.and and if u need to taunt, take names and dont play it safe like ABS

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Old 1st December 2008, 04:40   #36
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And no amount of convincing will convince the 'oh i want ABS' loving folks to get this point either.Supreme Abilities,maybe yes.
No amount of convincing will convince you regarding what panic braking really is. Like someone said, how can you pump a brake when you just have time to slam on the pedal? Think milliseconds.

As you said, each to his own.

And I wasn't taunting, going by the dictionary meaning. I don't believe anyone will have the ability(leave alone presence of mind) to pump brakes in an absolute panic situation(when everything is over in a couple of seconds).

taunt 1 (tônt)tr.v. taunt·ed, taunt·ing, taunts 1. To reproach in a mocking, insulting, or contemptuous manner



I was just being sarcastic, that's all. No insult intended.
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Old 1st December 2008, 06:47   #37
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ABS with EBD independently manages and controls each wheel. Even for those with supreme abilities to respond in milliseconds and enjoy the driving please in each of those milliseconds, I wonder how they get to controlling each wheel independently.
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Old 2nd December 2008, 18:03   #38
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How much enjoyment is there in standing on the brake as the car hurtles towards something hard* with the steering completely ineffective?

It's not my idea of fun!



*or, even worse, something soft.
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Old 2nd December 2008, 23:52   #39
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ABS should be made mandatory on all cars and also CVs.
Its a life saver for sure.

For those of us (most) who dont have a ABS equipped car:

Pumping is not the right way to gain maximum braking.
It results in a loop of the following things:
1. Tyres lock and loose grip
2. Tyres rotate and are either not under braking at all or are not under maximum braking
this keeps repeating.

Obviously, this is not the right way to brake.

What I do is: (I have learned this after a lot of practice on the track and also some of it is God's gift)

I brake hard,
As soon as tyres lock, (you can feel it),
DONT leave the brakes i.e. pump,.. just reduce pressure on your toes, this will reduce breaking force, mostly this will curb the locking, and this will be max utilization of available grip.

Also, one can feel, whether one wheel has locked or all have.
If it is the front inside wheel that has locked, (happens when you carry your braking into a corner, not advisable anyways)
just let it lock, wont make much of a difference.

I dont know whether everyone can do this, but if everyone could, its one of the most efficient ways.
(It requires a LOT of feel and practice)
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Old 3rd December 2008, 11:29   #40
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I've had a recent experience in my car and think it's quite relevant in this thread.

While driving from Windsor to Peace River (3700 km trip), I was traveling through North Dakota in the US when some of the worst weather in 10-15 years hit me. There was a severe snowstorm and almost a foot of snow covered the ground in a couple of days.

If that wasn't bad enough, the state highway I was traveling on was covered with "black ice", which is basically snow which has solidified and formed a uniform layer of ice on the roads. These cannot be cleaned out by shovels or snow ploughs and can only melt with time.

On one such intersection, I was doing about 60 mph (100 kph) when I was approaching the intersection. Unaware that I was traveling on a half inch thick sheet of ice, I braked in my usual way and all the wheels locked up and the car started spinning violently and ultimately fell into a ditch beside the road. I had to get a truck to winch me out of there. Thankfully, both me and the car (at least so far) were unhurt.

My point is, that although I did not have snow tires installed on my car back then, having ABS would have certainly helped. From then on I learnt that you never actually use your brakes on extremely icy roads, only your engine braking, except if you have ABS and snow tires.

No one can replicate what some of these electric nannies (ABS, airbags, ESC etc.) on your car do. There's a reason some companies charge a premium for these options, and that's because it costs a lot of money in R&D to come up with these ideas. And they are there for your own good. So people should use them even if it involves paying that little bit extra.

It's actually a fact that ABS actually increases your braking distance compared to non-ABS brakes, but it makes braking more predictable, and reduces the margin of error for ordinary drivers. That's why it's not used in racing cars, but for passenger cars, it's strongly recommended.

And all those people claiming that they are fully confident of their driving styles (without ABS) should be exposed to these conditions and that'll be their true test.

Just because someone hasn't "yet" crashed their 800 or Zen while driving on regular roads in India doesn't mean that they do not need ABS. There's no price for safety.
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Old 4th December 2008, 20:53   #41
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Quote:
It's actually a fact that ABS actually increases your braking distance compared to non-ABS brakes
No, it is not a "fact", although you are far from alone in arguing that it is!

The aim of ABS is to maintain braking at maximum efficiciency so, on most, but not all surfaces, braking distance should be reduced.

But we keep going around in circles (full lock!) on this one, and I think I typed that last sentence quite a few times here already!

I agree with most of the rest of your post, though.
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Old 5th December 2008, 06:28   #42
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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post

The aim of ABS is to maintain braking at maximum efficiency so, on most, but not all surfaces, braking distance should be reduced.
I think you're right about this one. On wet or slippery surfaces, ABS will definitely reduce braking distances, but on dry pavements with maximum possible grip, ABS might not make any difference on some performance braking systems.
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Old 5th December 2008, 06:40   #43
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Originally Posted by sujaylahiri View Post
I think you're right about this one. On wet or slippery surfaces, ABS will definitely reduce braking distances, but on dry pavements with maximum possible grip, ABS might not make any difference on some performance braking systems.
It is a fact that sliding friction is more than rolling friction, so on dry pavement with maximum grip, sliding would result in lesser stopping distances, albeit at the cost of control. But the differences are not too much between ABS and non-ABS, leaving the nut behind the wheel as the key deciding factor.

ABS increases braking distance on gravel too as the tyres lock up too easily.
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Old 5th December 2008, 11:57   #44
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It is a fact that sliding friction is more than rolling friction
I am neither a technician nor a scientist, and cannot argue this technically, but it is my understanding from just about everything I've read about ABS that a locked wheel is not as efficient at stopping the car as one with maximum braking but still rotating, so really disagree with your 'fact'.

Maximum braking efficiency, which occurs just before lock up is just as much the point of ABS as is the ability to steer.

Come to think of it, the ability to steer is going to be within one's car's handling capabilities anyway...
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Old 6th December 2008, 03:04   #45
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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I am neither a technician nor a scientist, and cannot argue this technically, but it is my understanding from just about everything I've read about ABS that a locked wheel is not as efficient at stopping the car as one with maximum braking but still rotating, so really disagree with your 'fact'.

Maximum braking efficiency, which occurs just before lock up is just as much the point of ABS as is the ability to steer.
Ok. Let's agree to disagree there. I remember reading this somewhere(Regarding friction - 6h class/grade? ) hence mentioned it.

But don't forget we both are on the same ABS bandwagon. No amount of time we spend on this thread is going to educate the supermen that ABS works better at what they think their brain/right foot combination can do.
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