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Old 25th November 2008, 14:00   #1
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Default Are High Tech CNC machines Available to Indian Automotive Vendors?

the 'thud' factor is a measure of very good heavy gauge metal used plus fabricating them to very close tolerances in ultra-modern CNC facilities. This gives a strong feeling to the entire body as if being crafted of one metal block.

post WW II only Germany had such facilities and the Japs were given access to latest tech by Americans.

India was kept out of this after Pokhran by various agreements such as Wassenaar and CTBT/NPT that kept high tech CNC and plastic components out of India's reach and thus the poor quality of the earlier Indica panels as manifest.
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Old 25th November 2008, 14:31   #2
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India was kept out of this after Pokhran by various agreements such as Wassenaar and CTBT/NPT that kept high tech CNC and plastic components out of India's reach and thus the poor quality of the earlier Indica panels as manifest.
I doubt that statement, my friend. India has been having CNC technology for the past 25 odd years!

Indicas panel gaps and poor quality arise out of poor vendor quality and the raw materials used!
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Old 25th November 2008, 14:36   #3
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I doubt that statement, my friend. India has been having CNC technology for the past 25 odd years!

Indicas panel gaps and poor quality arise out of poor vendor quality and the raw materials used!
CNC machines with 4 axis or more are restricted to non-signatory nations under CTBT/Wassnaar.

lesser ones are easily available. But to fabricate these CNC machines is a long learning curve that involves 'reinventing the wheel'. One of the reasons why India finds it tad difficult to build a Jet turbine engine still. Kaveri is still under development since 1970s esp due to the technology embargo by the west.

Still it can be done, but will take time.
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Old 25th November 2008, 14:51   #4
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The Wassenaar Arrangement was created by a multination group to replace the procedures that existed under COCOM. COCOM, which expired March 31, 1995, was also a multinational agreement formed in 1949 primarily to prevent U.S.S.R. and its satellite nations (lurker: India was one such satellite then) from obtaining sophisticated products that could be used to enhance its weapons capability. In its 46 years of existence COCOM had become grossly out-of-date as the landscape of our allies and enemies changed.

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What Technology Are We Protecting? Obtaining a U.S. export license for a CNC or a CNC controlled machine that has one or more of the restricted capabilities is a time consuming process that often causes delayed shipments and unhappy customers. In some cases, foreign customers have even stopped soliciting quotations from U.S. machine tool companies for the higher tech machines because of previous bad experiences consisting of delays and licenses turn downs. Instead they have gone to foreign manufacturers where the export rules are interpreted more liberally.

Why is it that the U.S. government risks the loss of export business by applying stricter interpretations to export regulations? It appears that the U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) is the motivating agency in this matter. DOD maintains that all three CNC restrictions are valuable capabilities when it comes to making small, very accurate parts associated with manufacturing nuclear weapons. (lurker: these very same 'accurate' parts are used by automobile industry also and thus in essence they have crippled and made uncompetitive the auto industries of various countries as well in a single stroke) DOD has been very consistent in their position that the machines with one or more of the three restricted capabilities would be of significant value to non-friendly countries for manufacturing weapon systems that are a threat to our national security.
Ref:
CNC export regulations
Modern Machine Shop, Feb, 1997 by Golden E. Herrin
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Old 25th November 2008, 15:28   #5
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Ref:
CNC export regulations
Modern Machine Shop, Feb, 1997 by Golden E. Herrin
(lurker: these very same 'accurate' parts are used by automobile industry also and thus in essence they have crippled and made uncompetitive the auto industries of various countries as well in a single stroke)

Sorry mate, accurate parts is a very large term for the auto industry. Small parts is again a very large term.

Multi Axes CNC machines have been in this country atleast 25 years ago. I have even witnessed some in action while on my visit to the then "TELCO", now known as "TATA Motors"

Its not the capability of the machines but the elements involved in Design as well as the manufacturing processes designed for the end product to be efficient.

Guess we are going way OT, Apologies to all!
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Old 25th November 2008, 15:35   #6
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Multi Axes CNC machines have been in this country atleast 25 years ago. I have even witnessed some in action while on my visit to the then "TELCO", now known as "TATA Motors"
dear friend, multi axis meaning 2 axis. Here I am speaking of 4 axis and more for higher precision/detailing and closer tolerance.

there is no way TATA/TELCO had 4 axis or higher CNC machines 25 years ago legally.

Secondly all these better machines go on to build better processes. The more refined the machines the better the processes.

We in India surely would have had atleast 'french build quality' and engineering standards if our local companies could lay their hands on such tech.

Again, it is 4 AXIS or more and related software to better the processes and produce competitive products and not MULTI AXIS (which means 2 or 3 AXIS).
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Old 25th November 2008, 16:21   #7
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errr....sorry for going OT, but what is CNC? i am too lazy to google for it :(
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Old 25th November 2008, 16:24   #8
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Originally Posted by CtrlAltDel View Post
errr....sorry for going OT, but what is CNC? i am too lazy to google for it :(
CNC = Computer numerical control
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Old 25th November 2008, 16:28   #9
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CNC = Computer numerical control
that was informative, thank you...

ok, what is it?
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Old 25th November 2008, 16:36   #10
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Google and wiki are your best friends.

CNC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 25th November 2008, 17:57   #11
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dear friend, multi axis meaning 2 axis. Here I am speaking of 4 axis and more for higher precision/detailing and closer tolerance.
FYI, Tata had multiaxis [read 5 axes] CNC machines long back. Also do you know that in Jamshedpur, they have a facility to build their own CNC machines. Only the controllers are imported, but all the rest of the machine is made inhouse. BTW, a CNC machine is no great shakes. I have been in the field for 15 years myself.

Even today, Fanuc and Siemens are the major vendor to the CNC manufactueres in India and the system part is completely imported.
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Old 25th November 2008, 18:14   #12
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First of all, not only tata but also its vendors need access to same tech.

Secondly the source code access would also be restricted since the restricted functions include:

Functions restricted are:

* More than four axis of simultaneously coordinated axes of motion.

* Real-time processing of CAD data in the CNC for tool path generation.

* Adaptive control with more than one machine condition monitored and fed back to the control for modifying the machining process.

So even if Telco had certain 5-axis CNC machines (as per your claim), it would have restricted functionality. Anyhow the Wassenaar agreement took emphasis out of controlling hardware and restricted software access of such machines to non-signatory countries. Even if CNC and Fanuc export the machines, what level of software access do they provide their clients. You may know ?

anyhow result is the same.

So unless multipe axis (4>) CNC machines are made widely available and easily accessible even to the smallest vendor. And they are utilized extensively. There is not going to be any sharp upswing in build quality.

Last edited by Technocrat : 25th November 2008 at 18:53.
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Old 25th November 2008, 18:32   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post

there is no way TATA/TELCO had 4 axis or higher CNC machines 25 years ago legally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
First of all, not only tata but also its vendors need access to same tech.

Secondly the source code access would also be restricted since the restricted functions include:
...

anyhow result is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
So unless multipe axis (4>) CNC machines are made widely available and easily accessible even to the smallest vendor. And they are utilized extensively. There is not going to be any sharp upswing in build quality.
We are way OT:

Our best bet is to start a new thread and we'll take this discussion there, cos i agree to disagree again!

Cheers
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Old 25th November 2008, 19:12   #14
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Guys, My apologies if I didn't understand the discussion on this thread. I have sold CNC machines for more than 5 yrs in the past, which included machines from
1) Makino
2) BFW
3) ACE Designers
4) Zussammen

and have exp in designing CNC machines

For what I have read here I tend to agree with HEADERS
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Old 25th November 2008, 19:12   #15
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Secondly all these better machines go on to build better processes. The more refined the machines the better the processes.
Not necessarily. Its the process design that makes the process stable. The CNC machines can only help in cycle times and abilities to do multiple things consistently. The idea of a CNC is to have repeatability and reproduceability, consistently!


Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
First of all, not only tata but also its vendors need access to same tech.

Secondly the source code access would also be restricted since the restricted functions include:

Functions restricted are:

* More than four axis of simultaneously coordinated axes of motion.

* Real-time processing of CAD data in the CNC for tool path generation.
I'm not sure of any realtime processing of CAD data for tool path generation. Generally, CNC machines have CNC programs written either manually or by CAM and transferred via DNC to the machine. The CNC controller executes these instructions which results in the tool path generation.

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
* Adaptive control with more than one machine condition monitored and fed back to the control for modifying the machining process.
Its available. But the definition is very vague to me. Are you referring to the tool wear monitoring and offset correction ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
Even if CNC and Fanuc export the machines, what level of software access do they provide their clients.
Sir, I didnt get you. Fanuc is a CNC controller manufacturer. Can you elaborate on the above statement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
So unless multipe axis (4>) CNC machines are made widely available and easily accessible even to the smallest vendor. And they are utilized extensively. There is not going to be any sharp upswing in build quality.
I may tend to agree partially here. The impeding factor is the cost of procurement of the machines. The cost of the machine determines the cost of manufacture.

An upswing in the build quality is in the detailing of the manufacturing processes. There are a few manufacturers in the country who do it!

Cheers
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