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Old 12th December 2008, 22:26   #76
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Any signs of a Track Day happening soon?

@mclaren: Thanks for those links.
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Old 12th December 2008, 22:41   #77
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Harry, if you can fly down to Bangalore. I shall take you to the track and even get you a car you can drive on track. Saloons or single seaters.
Thanks mate. Some day i will be compelled to take advantage of your generosity
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Old 12th December 2008, 23:22   #78
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Originally posted by mclaren1885
The point is I have often heard friends and some BHPians themselves say what is there in driving fast. You don't need good tires, suspension, brakes at all. So this is to enunciate the importance of all so that everyone who likes to drive fast is aware of the fact that to be safe its important to have a complete package. Not just titanium, CF whatever.
Looks like you haven't really understood what performance driving means.

Any car can be driven fast irrespective of shape, size, suspension setup, tyres, aerodynamics etc.

A guy driving a stock M800 maybe 15 secs slower per lap, than your tuned car, but does this make you a fast driver? For all you know, he must be pushing his car more than you are pushing yours.

Even the slowest F1 car on the grid is far quicker on track than any other race/sport/production car. But still, performance drivers race all sorts of cars in every state and tune.

Performance driving is not about how fast your car is capable of going, but how fast you are capable of making it go.

Driving a car faster and driving a faster car are 2 different things.

Shan2nu

Last edited by Shan2nu : 12th December 2008 at 23:29.
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Old 12th December 2008, 23:35   #79
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Well said buddy! Could not have put it better!

Cheers
Shrey


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Looks like you haven't really understood what performance driving means.

Any car can be driven fast irrespective of shape, size, suspension setup, tyres, aerodynamics etc.

A guy driving a stock M800 maybe 15 secs slower per lap, than your tuned car, but does this make you a fast driver? For all you know, he must be pushing his car more than you are pushing yours.

Even the slowest F1 car on the grid is far quicker on track than any other race/sport/production car. But still, performance drivers race all sorts of cars in every state and tune.

Performance driving is not about how fast your car is capable of going, but how fast you are capable of making it go.

Driving a car faster and driving a faster car are 2 different things.

Shan2nu
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Old 13th December 2008, 00:21   #80
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If you are talking about the track its okay, but if on a public road you are fast enough to put strain on either the tires or yourself, or need to apply track concentration on curves, you are probably driving too fast.
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Old 13th December 2008, 04:04   #81
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Completely agree with your point. When I meant not all cars can be driven fast, I meant you cannot have a qualis and hope to do speeds like a esteem.
I don't claim to be a great driver, but I consider myself lucky to have ridden with people that are. On one instance, my mentor Sahukar Srinath did Mysore-Bangalore in under 1:45 on the old single road in a Landmaster with a matador engine, going one on one with a pesky Esteem we met on the way. I was in the passenger seat, holding on for dear life. It was hilarious to see the Esteem's show of power on the straights, but having trailbraked into every single corner, and having taken every single corner at the absolute limit, you could clearly tell who is the better driver.

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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Ananth, I am not talking about "busted suspension" situations. A stock setup working well isn't under the same kind of stress in a straight line as it is under a corner. For eg, compare the suspension between the Sonata Embara (super soft) to an Elantra (quite stiff). Whereas you can take the Elantra into a corner at a greater speed, trying to do so with the Embara will give you a scare.
Again, "stress", "soft", "stiff" etc are just subjective, and frankly it offends my sensibilities as an engineer. Your assessment of the Sonata or Elantra is what you think of the car, not its actual capabilities as assessed by an expert driver. Its better if technical issues like this are left out of the present thread.

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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
I was referring to stiffer suspension only to be able to hold greater speeds into corners for those who intend to drive fast.
This is a sweeping statement again. Maybe for the race track, yes. Not true in part or in whole, for a real-world road surface.

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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Point I am trying to make is many people (including me) think it is least necessary to upgrade from stock tires to better ones for better grip and to increase efficiency in braking. But its only once you have moved onto a different set (upsize, compound change) of tires that you realize how wrong you were earlier.
There is no doubt that the best gripping tire is essential to getting the maximum out of a car. But the point is, can YOU get the maximum out of that best gripping tire SAFELY? I think not.

Very simple reason for that. When a grippy tire lets go mid-corner you are already traveling way faster than a less grippy tire, and most definitely lack the skills to control the vehicle. With an inferior tire you are traveling slower and are less likely to be at the limit of the chassis, thus improving your chances of a recovery.

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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Hhhhmm. Maybe I have just been fortunate enough to be able to ride with some people who haven't ended up just sitting on the brakes in panic situations and locked their tires. v1p3r, memo45, tadu to name a few.

Also, I know instinctively when you see a biker cross a road when you are doing say 140kmph the first thing you do is either swerve or just sit on the brakes. That is because it comes instinctively to us. But with a little practise don't you think you can frame your mind to brake, downshift and then use the power to steer away safely. Another thing with just sitting on the brakes is that you are often not under any control if the tail steps out under braking.
If you had time to shift gears, it wasnt a panic braking situation at all. I can prove this through simple math but I think it will be a wasted effort.

Last edited by ananthkamath : 13th December 2008 at 04:05.
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Old 13th December 2008, 05:59   #82
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Rahul, i think this was a great thread you started and pointed out at points like importance of suspensions and physical dynamics of a car as most leaves out these vital aspects which make a huge difference in a car's and driver's confidence in cornering at higher speeds.

Guys lets keep the thread informative and make it a healthy argument rather than pointing out each others faults and trying to reason out the other's POV with concepts and theories which the other might not even know of.

Rahul just presented a generic theory about driving fast and what required to do so well and safely.

We all can fill in with our inputs rather than stating what he missed out on etc.

Everyone has his or her own way of looking at things and so everyone has his or her own POV but lets respect that.
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Old 13th December 2008, 07:25   #83
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Of all the points mentioned in earlier posts about suspensions, tyres etc another factor influencing driving quick is also attributable to the Road itself. More precisely the type of surface being driven upon.

A super grippy tyre using a soft compound becomes sticky, which makes it so grippy but a patch of road(especially curves and corners) which might have a light layer of sand or dust stick to tyres and make them loose grip, mid-corner especially when you need it the most.

To take corners faster, you can use the inside banks(if there is a difference of height between road and surface below ) of the corner with the front inside wheel dropped in, it helps in maintaining a sharper line and faster corner speed.

We in Delhi are not blessed with tracks, so find the nearest deserted open ground where you can pratice driving safely. Practice countersteering, i know its useless in a FF car which most of us drive but counter-steering can get you out of a few tricky - OMG my tail is out, what do i do now!!- situations. "a few" is in bold because as i mentioned most of ud drive FF cars which are not capable of drifting so there is a high possibility of spinning out.

Weave through stones(in that empty ground!!not the road) and tighten the gap while increasing your speed. This will help with your manuvereability skills and will also help you to judge the car's size accurately and will help you judge the amount of gap to keep while cutting through traffic. Use ORVMs effectively.

(Again on the empty ground)speed and turn as if entering into a corner and regulate your braking, you will know when your brakes lock up and how hard you can brake into corners without locking up.

Some people cant even drive fast in a straight line, because they are unaware of the time to shift. Shifting at the right time and at the right revs help with going faster. Trick is to stay in the rev band/torque band of the engine.

Just my 2 cents!!!
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Old 13th December 2008, 08:46   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
Again, "stress", "soft", "stiff" etc are just subjective, and frankly it offends my sensibilities as an engineer. Your assessment of the Sonata or Elantra is what you think of the car, not its actual capabilities as assessed by an expert driver. Its better if technical issues like this are left out of the present thread.
Ananth that's a very good point. As an example if you take the Mitsubishi ancer Cedia which people say is an excellent handling car based on the evo's chasis and is perfectly setup. A few months back there was an article in a magazine which tested all these car's on track driven by Narain Karthikeyan.

The Cedia and the Civic were very poor handlers because of the suspension setup. They could not carry speed into corners due to excessive roll and dive under brakes. Narain was disappointed with the handling of both cars. The Honda Cr-V fared better than these 2. The Ford fiesta 1.6 was just a little slower than the Skoda Octavia vRS and faster than the Cedia and Civic.
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Old 13th December 2008, 10:01   #85
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Hey Abhik,
If there are faults here everyone has the right to correct them.
you got to realise that there are a lot of people who learn from these threads/posts so it is important to correct mistakes.
Secondly it is an open forum opinions will vary, not everyone will agree with everything.
If someone is stating something they should be open to creection.
Whereas if someone is asking something than that is a different situation,
no one is taking POTSHOTS, but everyone is open to correct or voice their opinion. else the whole idea of this being an open forum is nullified
Cheers

Last edited by iceman91 : 13th December 2008 at 10:05. Reason: added something
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Old 13th December 2008, 10:50   #86
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Originally Posted by Shan2nu View Post
Any car can be driven fast irrespective of shape, size, suspension setup, tyres, aerodynamics etc.
Yes, any car can be driven fast. No denying that. But what I am trying to say is if you take a M800 with stock tires how fast could you drive it? Now by changing the tires, improving braking, making it handle better won't you be able to drive faster taking less risks? Would you feel safer driving a stock M800 at its limit keeping all things stock or feel safer driving a M800 that handles, corners, brakes better? I am sure the latter is more fun to drive (being able to extract further limits) & SAFER. The only point I am trying to make is, its SAFER to be driving a car at its limits that can handle, brake better than a stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath View Post
I don't claim to be a great driver, but I consider myself lucky to have ridden with people that are. On one instance, my mentor Sahukar Srinath did Mysore-Bangalore in under 1:45 on the old single road in a Landmaster with a matador engine, going one on one with a pesky Esteem we met on the way. I was in the passenger seat, holding on for dear life. It was hilarious to see the Esteem's show of power on the straights, but having trailbraked into every single corner, and having taken every single corner at the absolute limit, you could clearly tell who is the better driver.
Ananth, I am sure you have been in this scene enough to realize that you will come across some people whose driving will defy all logic. JD Madan kept clocking faster times in a underpowered Getz on track while there were much faster cars with good drivers too. But he is in a completely different league. Yes, I do agree with you point that a particular driver can harness the limits of a car better than another person.

Quote:
Again, "stress", "soft", "stiff" etc are just subjective, and frankly it offends my sensibilities as an engineer. Your assessment of the Sonata or Elantra is what you think of the car, not its actual capabilities as assessed by an expert driver. Its better if technical issues like this are left out of the present thread.
I am no expert, it was just my observation. I am hoping you guys would chip in with your experiences too.

Quote:
This is a sweeping statement again. Maybe for the race track, yes. Not true in part or in whole, for a real-world road surface.
For eg, if you are doing the Bangalore-Mysore section at the limits of the car and self (considering you have a good driver). If the cars to be driven are a OHC Vtec & 1.6 Fiesta which of the two would you think would reach faster? Safer with less scary moments? Consider the road to be devoid of traffic, say like a track. I would say, the fiesta will make the cut faster because it can take the flowing corners better because of the chassy, suspension being better (relatively in my opinion) to the Vtec. Maybe others might feel exactly the opposite? Point here I am trying to make is even in real life conditions, if you are driving to the limits of the car (assuming there is a good driver behind the wheel) will a slightly modded car (to negate its weak points) wont be faster/safer than its former stock avtaar?

Quote:
There is no doubt that the best gripping tire is essential to getting the maximum out of a car. But the point is, can YOU get the maximum out of that best gripping tire SAFELY? I think not.
Definitely not, I agree with you. That still wouldn't mean one goes around driving a Swift D with the stock tires SMIL supplies thinking you won't be able to reach the limits of a PP2 or AD07 (just using them as an example). Recently a friend found out that his swift shod with JK vectra's (upsized) displayed their limits a lot earlier than the driver expected and ended up crashing the car into a pit. Is it worth trying to drive fast with a tire that cannot grip to match the limit of the car? Or is it safer to drive with a set of tires who even at the limit of the car would give you less chances of locking up, or loosing grip around a corner? Assuming that corners are being taken at a good speed, not exceeding the laws of physics. For eg, one cannot go into a corner at 150 (when the optimum max speed of entry should be 100) and expect to not take the car out of control. That would be just plain stupidity.

Quote:
Very simple reason for that. When a grippy tire lets go mid-corner you are already traveling way faster than a less grippy tire, and most definitely lack the skills to control the vehicle. With an inferior tire you are traveling slower and are less likely to be at the limit of the chassis, thus improving your chances of a recovery.
I seem to have a slightly contradicting view here. Do correct me if I am wrong. A inferior tire will have less rolling resistance, which means a car will definitely be achieving faster speeds till the time you hit the corner (provided you haven't been wasting time spinning wheels). Its a different issue whether that set of tire can take the corner safely, but a superior tire will probably slow your entry speed a bit, but let you keep a faster corner speed throughout? Correct me if my theory is wrong.

Here is a handson experience from a fellow member karthik kumar: He says on his swift D shod with JK Vectra's his car felt a lot faster from 0-100 or reaching top end because of the low rolling resistance. But once he switched to the AD07's his 0-100 timing has suffered a bit due to the extra grip provided by these tires. But what he is very happy is that he can maintain sufficiently way higher speeds through corners even if his entry speed isn't as good as with the JK's. IMO the fun driving with the AD07's and being able to take corners way quicker (extracting the limits of the car way better and also feeling in control than JK's) is what I would prefer doing.

Quote:
If you had time to shift gears, it wasnt a panic braking situation at all. I can prove this through simple math but I think it will be a wasted effort.
Yes, panic stricken situations is again a relative word to each person. No point in discussing that theoretically. Only way to sort that out would be a on-road experience where two people can compare if the situation qualifies enough to be tagged "panic situation" and assess if a driver A was able to use engine braking (or any other tecniques) while a driver B may have felt he would have just used the brakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhik
Practice countersteering

Weave through stones(in that empty ground!!not the road) and tighten the gap while increasing your speed. This will help with your manuvereability skills and will also help you to judge the car's size accurately and will help you judge the amount of gap to keep while cutting through traffic.

(Again on the empty ground)speed and turn as if entering into a corner and regulate your braking, you will know when your brakes lock up and how hard you can brake into corners without locking up.
I completely agree. Just by practicing these on an empty ground will go a long way in teaching you the difference it makes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman91
If there are faults here everyone has the right to correct them.
Amit, if read carefully no one has been against the idea of correcting faults. But all that has been happening on this thread is misinterpreting the intention of this thread and pointless bashing at each other. Oh in between all this, some members pretending to be "the preaching samaritans" by saying its irresponsible to drive fast on public roads, unnecessarily taking digs at members/cars that were driving beyond the limits others did etc. Yes, it IS irresponsible. But we already know that don't we. I would rather be on road knowing that the guy in front/behind me knows how to drive and won't kill himself by stupidly entering a corner at speeds not meant for the car/man. This thread is to help people understand that each human/machine have limits and its best that one doesn't cross those limits. Here limits may vary from person to person.

Last edited by mclaren1885 : 13th December 2008 at 10:53.
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Old 13th December 2008, 10:59   #87
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Rahul glad you understand this.
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Old 13th December 2008, 11:05   #88
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Rahul glad you understand this.
Amit, if you notice my first post itself I have clearly mentioned lets not get personal on this thread and lets retain all the talk to tech talk and nothing more. But as usual certain members love taking digs at me & the elusive elantra just for the kicks. That is what is not needed on this thread. If you disagree to my views, prove so with technical explanations, certainly not by calling someone stupid who has left his brains at home, highly irresponsible, name calling etc. Though I am glad that now, we are actually making some progress on this thread and getting technical. Hope it does stay this way.
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Old 13th December 2008, 11:19   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885
Yes, any car can be driven fast. No denying that. But what I am trying to say is if you take a M800 with stock tires how fast could you drive it? Now by changing the tires, improving braking, making it handle better won't you be able to drive faster taking less risks? Would you feel safer driving a stock M800 at its limit keeping all things stock or feel safer driving a M800 that handles, corners, brakes better? I am sure the latter is more fun to drive (being able to extract further limits) & SAFER. The only point I am trying to make is, its SAFER to be driving a car at its limits that can handle, brake better than a stock.
I think it would be best to change the title from Essential Guide : To driving fast! to Essential Guide : To improving lap times!.

Like iv said before, improving your car to make it go faster is not really making you a faster driver. U take a M800 driver and put him in an RS, he will obviously put in much quicker lap times without even having to push as hard as he was in the smaller car.

Shan2nu
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Old 13th December 2008, 11:44   #90
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Like iv said before, improving your car to make it go faster is not really making you a faster driver.
Well by improving your car, you are going faster than before right? My only point is you can go faster & probably be much safer (to yourself and others) by making some necessary changes. But, yes that in a way does not make you a faster driver or maybe it does? To be able to handle the improvement in the vehicle you still need to have that extra room (within yourself) to handle it right? For eg, say your top end has been increased by mods. If you are able to take it to its new limit, you are moving one step ahead. There are people who irrespective of mods, will not be able to harness its potential to even 50%. Their self potential gets stagnant (say at a particular speed, top end or entry into a corner due to lack of confidence in self & not the machine) irrespective of further amendments to the limit of the car.

Quote:
U take a M800 driver and put him in an RS, he will obviously put in much quicker lap times without even having to push as hard as he was in the smaller car.
No point comparing a cycle to a busa. Compare two cars of the similar power bracket but different handling styles. OHC Vtec vs Fiesta 1.6S. Do let me know which do you think you would clock better lap times on, say at the MMST. I would love each of us here to do this test on track. Who is volunteering to let us TD a fiesta . Shan, you can get your VTEC to support your view on paper right?
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