Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 16th January 2009, 14:34   #16
Senior - BHPian
 
Surprise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chennai
Posts: 2,299
Thanked: 129 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I wouldn't go over 7,500 - 8,000 kms OR 1 year (whichever is earlier) on the same synthetic oil.
I was under the impression that our "Synthetic oil vs mineral oil" thread advocates change in every 15K kms. Time to get my S.Oil replaced as it has run nearly 10k kms.
Surprise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2009, 16:15   #17
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ahmedabad
Posts: 91
Thanked: 47 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raccoon View Post
I still have no idea how you are judging the oil by its colour. Dyes are added to lube oil just for visual appeal. Anyway, please check out the para I found on the Amsoil site:I certainly dont have any lab reports! Its for you to reject what I'v said at your own risk. After all its your engine...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I wouldn't go over 7,500 - 8,000 kms OR 1 year (whichever is earlier) on the same synthetic oil.

Gauging the condition of your engine oil by its colour is an incredibly amateur / old school method that has zero applicability today. Oil companies would like you to believe so, but you are better off avoiding this practice.
The single most reliable way is to get an oil-change based on kms driven and / or time.

Uhh I am not just using this visual factor to determine whether to change the oil or not. I am not claiming that this is the only way to determine either.

Frankly this is going off topic. the discussion is about life of a synth oil.

Synthetic oils do last longer because they retain their lubricating properties for a longer time. In an well maintained engine (that is no gasket leaks, piston rings are not worn out etc) synth oil should perform much longer than the mineral oils.

also to add, keeping the oil for an year would be a bad idea as well. If you run out of kilometers first then it'd be wiser to use a synth oil. If your car doesnt do more than 15000 kms a year then its not really going to make a difference.

Quote:
The single most reliable way is to get an oil-change based on kms driven and / or time.
while this is the only way to do, but there's a margin of +/- 1000kms, in cars its not evident since cars do not need a bore / piston change for 2 lakh kilometers, bike engines wear out much faster (high rpm's and temperatures) and thus how timely you change oil does make a difference. I usually change it prematurely becaue it doesnt hurt to be on the safer side . I changed my AGIP synth oil at 7k kms (with regular top ups are 1200kms intervals). It could have lasted more but I dont know.
Xeno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2009, 16:41   #18
Senior - BHPian
 
ImmortalZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Trivandrum
Posts: 2,133
Thanked: 139 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
*lots of good points
R2D2
Your points make sense.

Re: the OEMs running Synth from factory, all of those are high performance/super cars. The RDX has the only Acura/Honda turbopetrol engine. AMG, EVO, Porsche etc etc are self explanatory. The drivetrain on these vehicles are hardly comparable to our run of the mill mass produced econo boxes.

But I concede you have some good points.
ImmortalZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2009, 16:57   #19
Senior - BHPian
 
Raccoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Poona
Posts: 1,832
Thanked: 105 Times
Default

Xeno, you didn't mention which make of Hero Honda oil you use. Also if you used it from a genuine sealed bottle and got it changed in front of you. I'm curious to know because I too have a CBZ...
Raccoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2009, 18:14   #20
Senior - BHPian
 
R2D2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Punya Nagari
Posts: 1,889
Thanked: 1,127 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
Your points make sense.

Re: the OEMs running Synth from factory, all of those are high performance/super cars. The RDX has the only Acura/Honda turbopetrol engine. AMG, EVO, Porsche etc etc are self explanatory. The drivetrain on these vehicles are hardly comparable to our run of the mill mass produced econo boxes.

But I concede you have some good points.
Thanks Immortalz. But we do have some run-of-the-mill mass produced albeit highly tuned or well appointed Jap boxes here. The Evo and Acura.

Though car engines in the the super luxury segment may have machining to finer tolerances which means reduced friction and running in periods, the point I was trying to make here is that if those marquees can trust synth oils in new engines so can we. One of the reasons sports or high perf cars use synth is the tremendous stress on engine parts can kill ordinary oil. But then you also have factory fill oils in our Jap cars which do pretty much the same.

Think of it this way. Synth is just what the doctor ordered given the arguably 'rougher' surfaces in mass produced cars. Rough surfaces produce more friction and require better oil to help them survive the initial 600 miles better. Of course, all modern engines are bench run in to an extent at the factory.

Cheers!

R2D2
R2D2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2009, 18:43   #21
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,723
Thanked: 88,963 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surprise View Post
I was under the impression that our "Synthetic oil vs mineral oil" thread advocates change in every 15K kms. Time to get my S.Oil replaced as it has run nearly 10k kms.
The opening post of our synthetic vs mineral oil article reads:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Extended oil change intervals?: Even though most synthetic oil brands boast of extended oil change intervals, Team-BHP recommends that you still change your engine oil every 7,500 – 10,000 km. Indian driving conditions put a lot of stress on your engine with low average speeds, bumper-to-bumper traffic and harsh environmental conditions.
Where did you get that impression? I hope you didn't mix it up with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
No synthetics during the running-in period: Wear and tear is actually good for a new engine. Synthetic oil, with its superior lubricating properties, hinders the running-in process and is best used only after 10,000 – 15,000 km.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeno View Post
also to add, keeping the oil for an year would be a bad idea as well. If you run out of kilometers first then it'd be wiser to use a synth oil. If your car doesnt do more than 15000 kms a year then its not really going to make a difference.
I'd rather be safe than sorry with my cars. And if I do run out of kms earlier than a year, then my oil change is pre-poned as well. That is precisely why I posted "I wouldn't go over 7,500 - 8,000 kms OR 1 year (whichever is earlier) on the same synthetic oil."

For the record, Mercedes changes the Mobil 1 in my C220 every 10,000 kms. They don't see the need to change it earlier. In my Honda & Jeep, I typically change around the 7.5 - 8K mark.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2009, 19:34   #22
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ahmedabad
Posts: 91
Thanked: 47 Times
Default

Sorry Raccoon i overlooked that part

I buy it from the authorised HH showroom itself (ravi motors, tumkur) its a 900ml bottle (10W30) in golden colour. its used on all the HH's , no specific oil for the CBZ-xtreme or the ZMA.. (which is suprising). I always get it changed in front of me everytime. I can can the engine oil myself (have the tools) but I do not know where to take the used oil since it has to be disposed off properly.

the showroom oil is good for its price, only mineral oil i found comparable and slightly better was the Elf MotoGold (but its 30 bucks more as well). and its also 20W40 grade oil. Thee 30004T Motul in 10W30 is a rare one to find, most of the stocks of the 30004T are of 20W40 grade.
Xeno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2009, 19:36   #23
Senior - BHPian
 
R2D2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Punya Nagari
Posts: 1,889
Thanked: 1,127 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeno View Post
Frankly this is going off topic. the discussion is about life of a synth oil.

Synthetic oils do last longer because they retain their lubricating properties for a longer time. In an well maintained engine (that is no gasket leaks, piston rings are not worn out etc) synth oil should perform much longer than the mineral oils.
Xeno, this is not true. Synthetics do NOT claim to have longer life unless it is mentioned explicitly on the label. This myth (among the many myths about synthetics) has been perpetrated primarily to justify the much higher cost of a synth oil change.

The bottom line is - Synth WILL provide better protection to your engine when drained and refilled at manufacturer's recommended intervals. You can keep the oil in your engine longer ONLY if the oil is classified as extended drain.

Regards,

R2D2
R2D2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2009, 21:00   #24
Senior - BHPian
 
Raccoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Poona
Posts: 1,832
Thanked: 105 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeno View Post
Sorry Raccoon i overlooked that part

I buy it from the authorised HH showroom itself (ravi motors, tumkur) its a 900ml bottle (10W30) in golden colour. its used on all the HH's , no specific oil for the CBZ-xtreme or the ZMA.. (which is suprising). I always get it changed in front of me everytime. I can can the engine oil myself (have the tools) but I do not know where to take the used oil since it has to be disposed off properly.

the showroom oil is good for its price, only mineral oil i found comparable and slightly better was the Elf MotoGold (but its 30 bucks more as well). and its also 20W40 grade oil. Thee 30004T Motul in 10W30 is a rare one to find, most of the stocks of the 30004T are of 20W40 grade.
Thanks! But this Hero Honda oil you are using is manufactured by who?? I mean Savita (Idemitsu) or BP or Tide Water Oil (Veedol)? I have heard that the BP product makes engine "rough" after 1k or so km. This is what I have heard, hence the question. Have not tried BP myself. I have been using Idemitsu till now. Bike is quite smooth with it... but havent compared with any other oil... and my running is low... barely even 2k before the oil is changed (6 months).

You can collect your used oil in an old oil container or something and take it to your service centre or any other garage who you know positively sends the oil for recycling. I have been told that the garages sell this used oil... so they should be happy to take it from you for free. This is what I do.

Btw, hope you know Gulf Oil has come out with a 10w30 API SL and is targetted for Hero Honda. I'v heard its better than the other oils. Will try it out soon.

Last edited by Raccoon : 16th January 2009 at 21:02.
Raccoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2009, 03:55   #25
BHPian
 
vinayvtec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 390
Thanked: 9 Times
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
Although the usuage is low - suggest that each time you take it out - warm it up, "enjoy" it - that will blast the muck and moisture out. It is also known as the "italian tune up"
Yeah, When I start the car first 5-10 Kms is slow and the gear shift is as per books (considering the RPM), then I drive the car only to enjoy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Vinay, please note that the 10,000 mile (16K kms) drain interval is applicable to US driving conditions. Not Indian roads which are far more congested and dusty with stop and go traffic. This kind of driving is classified as severe and you should follow the drain intervals recommended by the manufacturer for these conditions.

Regards,

R2D2
I was just worried about the viscosity of the oil.
vinayvtec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2009, 04:33   #26
BHPian
 
Atlblkz06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 166
Thanked: 6 Times
Default

The only redeeming factor in this Synth vs Conv. war is that Synthetic oils do not have any contaminants like sulfur, wax or other petroleum products.

If your engine is "special", then get synthetic, otherwise I think conventional is just fine. I've seen plenty of high mileage cars (250k+ miles) that have seen nothing but conventional oil - and they're all running fine. I get the oil changed in my Honda Accord (VTEC) every 5k miles at a cheap local store for 25 bucks, and I dont see anything wrong with that. I have 100k miles on it and its still going strong.

However I change the oil in the vette myself in the garage and use synthetic. It's whats recommended for the car, so I just deal with it. I pay $40 for 8 quarts of Mobil1 5W-30 vs $15 for regular. A new engine alone is 14k so why put in something less than what's recommended, right?.

Ultimately using synthetic may be a complete waste - who knows. Maybe we're all trapped in a web of marketing lies. You must admit, this is a distinct possibility!
Atlblkz06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2009, 10:50   #27
Senior - BHPian
 
R2D2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Punya Nagari
Posts: 1,889
Thanked: 1,127 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinayvtec View Post
I was just worried about the viscosity of the oil.

Just follow the instructions in your owners manual. You need to meet or exceed recommended oil grades which is determined by the max & min ambient temperatures your car is expected to operate in. API classification is also important with most Indian cars using at least SF and the later models using SJ/SL/SM. Ditto for Diesels...but API classification changes to CF minimum.

If you want to make sure your car runs cool, also check your coolant premix. A 50%-50% coolant to (distilled) water is max recommended with some coolant manufacturers recommending 30%-70% coolant to water mix. Go with 50% as it is the safest from cooling capability and corrosion prevention viewpoint.

Cheers!

R2D2
R2D2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2009, 11:33   #28
Senior - BHPian
 
R2D2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Punya Nagari
Posts: 1,889
Thanked: 1,127 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlblkz06 View Post
The only redeeming factor in this Synth vs Conv. war is that Synthetic oils do not have any contaminants like sulfur, wax or other petroleum products.

If your engine is "special", then get synthetic, otherwise I think conventional is just fine. I've seen plenty of high mileage cars (250k+ miles) that have seen nothing but conventional oil - and they're all running fine. I get the oil changed in my Honda Accord (VTEC) every 5k miles at a cheap local store for 25 bucks, and I dont see anything wrong with that. I have 100k miles on it and its still going strong.

However I change the oil in the vette myself in the garage and use synthetic. It's whats recommended for the car, so I just deal with it. I pay $40 for 8 quarts of Mobil1 5W-30 vs $15 for regular. A new engine alone is 14k so why put in something less than what's recommended, right?.

Ultimately using synthetic may be a complete waste - who knows. Maybe we're all trapped in a web of marketing lies. You must admit, this is a distinct possibility!
Yes, for most cars, synths are nice to have but not must have. You're lucky with the price of Mobil 1. We in India pay Rs 800 about $16 and Shell about $20 (Shell Helix ultra) respectively for 1.05 quarts or 1 litre of synth oil. That is 3x to 4x the price you pay in the USA. As you can see, Indians are getting ripped off!

Cheers!

R2D2
R2D2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2009, 12:41   #29
Team-BHP Support
 
navin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: mumbai
Posts: 22,501
Thanked: 3,879 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I wouldn't go over 7,500 - 8,000 kms OR 1 year
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I'd rather be safe than sorry with my cars.

For the record, Mercedes changes the Mobil 1 in my C220 every 10,000 kms.
Agreed but it does depend on your driving style. Most manufacturers do not take into account Urban Indian conditions when defining their specifications.

On a "track day" for example oil should be changed immediately before and after the event.

from Engine Lubrication: Motor Oil, Pumps and Filters

Driving is considered "severe service" when:

Most trips are less than 4 miles.

Most trips are less than 10 miles when outside temperatures remain below freezing.

Prolonged high-speed driving during hot weather.

Idling for extended periods and continued low-speed operation (as when driving in stop-and-go traffic).

Towing a trailer; and

Driving in dusty or heavily polluted areas.


Quote:
Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Point a) is not entirely true Navin. Synthetic manufacturers always suggest you follow manufacturer's recommended drain intervals especially when the vehicle is under warranty.

Also, Mobil debunks the other myth that synthetics cannot be used in new cars.
a) Agreed. the reason I stated what I did was in reference to the earlier post. I follow the principle of changing my car's oil (Mobil 1) every 10k km or 6 months which ever comes first. Since our average use is 10K per year we are well within the km driven if I change every 6 months.

b) Oil breakdown depends partially on time, on number of km driven but also how hard you drive the car. I would guess that oil breakdown in a Turbo car (where engine temps can be higher) would need to be more frequent.

Last edited by navin : 17th January 2009 at 12:43.
navin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2009, 23:31   #30
Senior - BHPian
 
R2D2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Punya Nagari
Posts: 1,889
Thanked: 1,127 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by navin View Post
a) Agreed. the reason I stated what I did was in reference to the earlier post. I follow the principle of changing my car's oil (Mobil 1) every 10k km or 6 months which ever comes first. Since our average use is 10K per year we are well within the km driven if I change every 6 months.

b) Oil breakdown depends partially on time, on number of km driven but also how hard you drive the car. I would guess that oil breakdown in a Turbo car (where engine temps can be higher) would need to be more frequent.
Well, glad to see you believe in changing synth oil by mileage and time. Thats the right way.


Unfortunately there are too many people who believe synth is a miracle oil formulation and justify their rather large expense by stretching the change intervals. Then there are those who believe that synth wont do for a new engine or believe that "1 multigrade oil fits all (5W-50 anyone?)". Most of this on the advice of a neighbourhood retailer. It is just amazing what people are told and what they will believe to be true.

There's an acronym 'RTFM' which is commonly used in the computer world and is relevant to the world of automobiles as well.

Cheers!
R2D2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Synthetic Oil in Bangalore epyupc Modifications & Accessories 50 8th December 2017 22:23
ARTICLE: Synthetic oil vs Mineral oil GTO On modifying a car 4813 5th December 2017 12:41
Where to buy Mobil1 / Castrol Synthetic Oil in Mumbai? Max Shifting gears 27 14th June 2015 23:41
Oil change..Synthetic, where to source DRC Technical Stuff 21 2nd December 2007 15:00
Synthetic Oil karthik247 Technical Stuff 10 8th November 2005 18:02


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 11:29.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks