Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 30th January 2009, 19:01   #16
BHPian
 
siddartha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: bangalore
Posts: 671
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

wish i could remember those formulae , or i will have to search in some old text book.

or without using a hydrometer , take known volume of diesel, in a container of known weight , find mass and divide by volume to find density.

Last edited by siddartha : 30th January 2009 at 19:10.
siddartha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2009, 02:40   #17
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 93
Thanked: 28 Times
Exclamation Density is a poor test for detecting adulteration of Diesel with Kerosene!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram_d View Post
If there is Kerosone mixed in the diesel then it's specific gravity will drop for any given temperature.
The Density ( = Specific Gravity) of Diesel will hardly change even if 10 to 15% SKO (Superior Kerosene Oil) is mixed into it ! Substantial changes in density will occur only if excessively large quantities of SKO are mixed in HSD (High Speed Diesel).

DENSITY IS A POOR TEST FOR DETECTING ADULTERATION OF DIESEL WITH KEROSENE.
??
Dr.Sumit Bhatti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2009, 11:48   #18
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 3,083
Thanked: 252 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Sumit Bhatti View Post
The Density ( = Specific Gravity) of Diesel will hardly change even if 10 to 15% SKO (Superior Kerosene Oil) is mixed into it ! Substantial changes in density will occur only if excessively large quantities of SKO are mixed in HSD (High Speed Diesel).

DENSITY IS A POOR TEST FOR DETECTING ADULTERATION OF DIESEL WITH KEROSENE.
Please tell us whether there is a simple and practical method to determine such adulteration.
anupmathur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2009, 15:02   #19
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,617
Thanked: 10,774 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Sumit Bhatti View Post
DENSITY IS A POOR TEST FOR DETECTING ADULTERATION OF DIESEL WITH KEROSENE.
??
And what about adulteration with naphtha? I believe that is totally undetectable at the pumps by any method at all, and can only be determined in the lab by fractionation.
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2009, 15:35   #20
F50
Senior - BHPian
 
F50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Mumbai/USA
Posts: 1,694
Thanked: 91 Times
Default

Interesting topic. After I bought a diesel car, I have become very specific of filling her up at selected pumps only. I dont know the tests but:

1) Car starts pluming black smoke at 2300 rpm. I guess that happens when the fuel is mixed?

2) cleaner fuel starts pluming at 3000 rpm.

I might be wrong and the above method might be rubbish but thats what I do.

In Mumbai 99% of the time, I fill her up at Ballard Estate (Karan Shah Pump) & Turner Rd (Bandra)

Once I filled her up in Dahisar as I was extremely low on fuel and it was smoking like a chimney.

P.S - Is it me or someone else has noticed this, my car becomes smooth when filled up adulterated fuel. lol
F50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2009, 15:45   #21
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,617
Thanked: 10,774 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by F50 View Post
1) Car starts pluming black smoke at 2300 rpm. I guess that happens when the fuel is mixed?
2) cleaner fuel starts pluming at 3000 rpm.
Once... it was smoking like a chimney.

P.S - Is it me or someone else has noticed this, my car becomes smooth when filled up adulterated fuel. lol
Pluming black smoke in a common rail diesel engine at whatever rpm (esp. if it's a new car) is almost definitely due to adulterated diesel. The ONLY (not-so-quick) way to detect adulteration is by checking tankful-to-tankful mileage (or else, we need a chemistry lab to prove it).

Smoke from the tailpipe can persist for some time due to carbon deposits in the muffler, even after bad diesel in the tank was replaced with good.

Filled with adulterated diesel, the engine might actually sound smoother and less clattery because of carbon build-up on the valves, manifolds, exhaust and mufflers. And driven sedately, it actually feels quite smooth to drive too! Been through that too...

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 22nd February 2009 at 15:47.
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2009, 17:42   #22
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 93
Thanked: 28 Times
Cool Kerosene: Profile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
Please tell us whether there is a simple and practical method to determine such adulteration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
And what about adulteration with naphtha? I believe that is totally undetectable at the pumps by any method at all, and can only be determined in the lab by fractionation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by F50 View Post
Interesting topic.
P.S - Is it me or someone else has noticed this, my car becomes smooth when filled up adulterated fuel. lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
The ONLY (not-so-quick) way to detect adulteration is by checking tankful-to-tankful mileage (or else, we need a chemistry lab to prove it).
Kerosene is a lighter distillate of crude than diesel; between petrol and diesel. Kerosene aur diesel to bhai- bhai hain! So it's impossible to just smell and tell. Differentiating requires expensive and extensive laboratory testing.

Kerosene is also blended into diesel by oil companies themselves ('upgrading' or 'downgrading' product a.k.a. 'adulteration' if done outside a refinery) to
1. Increase the yield of diesel from crude as per demand/supply requirement.
2. Improve the performance of diesel in low temperatures.
3. Increasing profitability of the refining process.

Kerosene is also known as 'Superior' Kerosene Oil or SKO. So it is actually 'superior to diesel'. You know, it's actually used to fly aircraft and jets. It's also a part of rocket fuel. So what's good for aircraft/jets/rockets is definitely good for your car!

Kerosene generates more heat and burns dry. Lack of lubrication will damage the Bosch pump. Kerosene also corrodes rubber parts quickly.

There was some hope of a simple test two years ago: Authentix. I will explain this in the next post.
Dr.Sumit Bhatti is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2009, 18:09   #23
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,617
Thanked: 10,774 Times
Default

You didn't mention about the effects of adulteration of diesel with naphtha.

I was just overwhelmed with the irony of this thread - an ENT surgeon explaining to a dentist the finer points of fuel adulteration...
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2009, 18:30   #24
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 93
Thanked: 28 Times
Cool The story of Authentix.

A marker was tested over the last two years ago to detect even minute mixing of subsidised kerosene in higher-priced diesel and petrol.

This designer molecule was imported from Authentix (a British firm), at a cost of more than Rs 150 crore per year. Authentix had claimed initially that the marker could not be tampered with.

This marker was colourless. As per Law, all Kerosene had to be spiked with this marker at the refinery gate. 0.5 ml is added per 1000 liters of Kerosene. All PDS Kerosene has to be dyed blue. When kerosene with marker is used to adulterate fuel, it shows up as pink when used with a specific reagent.

A private agency carried out 184,889 inspections, but only 204 pump samples and only 242 tank truck samples failed, a failure rate of only 0.1 percent ! A study published by NCAER (National Council for Applied Economic Research) in 2006 indicated that Kerosene adulteration was 38.6%.

Why did Authentix fail?
Petrol Dealers informed and the Oil Companies R&D confirmed that this marker was easily removed by straining the fuel through natural clay ! In fact, even the blue dye was removed !!

The Petroleum Ministry had no choice but to discontinue the Authentix marker after amending the control orders on fuel.

Fact: India consumed 9.35 million tonnes of PDS Kerosene in 2007-08 @ Rs. 9.09 per liter. Please refer to the threads:
1. 'The fuel price thread: Update-Petrol prices reduced by Rs.5, diesel by Rs.2'
2. 'Best places to fill up'.

Last edited by F50 : 22nd February 2009 at 18:56.
Dr.Sumit Bhatti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2009, 19:37   #25
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 3,083
Thanked: 252 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Sumit Bhatti View Post
Why did Authentix fail?
Petrol Dealers informed and the Oil Companies R&D confirmed that this marker was easily removed by straining the fuel through natural clay ! In fact, even the blue dye was removed !!
Now that is some serious R&D!
Don't mess with them!
anupmathur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2009, 20:44   #26
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Kollam, Kerala
Posts: 368
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Sumit Bhatti View Post
A marker was tested over the last two years ago to detect even minute mixing of subsidised kerosene in higher-priced diesel and petrol.

This designer molecule was imported from Authentix (a British firm), at a cost of more than Rs 150 crore per year. Authentix had claimed initially that the marker could not be tampered with.

This marker was colourless. As per Law, all Kerosene had to be spiked with this marker at the refinery gate. 0.5 ml is added per 1000 liters of Kerosene. All PDS Kerosene has to be dyed blue. When kerosene with marker is used to adulterate fuel, it shows up as pink when used with a specific reagent.

A private agency carried out 184,889 inspections, but only 204 pump samples and only 242 tank truck samples failed, a failure rate of only 0.1 percent ! A study published by NCAER (National Council for Applied Economic Research) in 2006 indicated that Kerosene adulteration was 38.6%.

Why did Authentix fail?
Petrol Dealers informed and the Oil Companies R&D confirmed that this marker was easily removed by straining the fuel through natural clay ! In fact, even the blue dye was removed !!

The Petroleum Ministry had no choice but to discontinue the Authentix marker after amending the control orders on fuel.

Fact: India consumed 9.35 million tonnes of PDS Kerosene in 2007-08 @ Rs. 9.09 per liter. Please refer to the threads:
1. 'The fuel price thread: Update-Petrol prices reduced by Rs.5, diesel by Rs.2'
2. 'Best places to fill up'.

So, were all the tanker loads of fuel stained through natural clay before filling the tanks of fuel pumps in order to remove the marker and thus avoid detection of adulteration? How can it be practical?
janitha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2009, 23:08   #27
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,617
Thanked: 10,774 Times
Default

I don't seem to be able to elicit any information from the oil co. sources as to the use of Authentix in India a couple of years ago. Could you please give us some more details as to when this was used and for what period? Also, any media reports exist about this?
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2009, 00:03   #28
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 93
Thanked: 28 Times
Cool Naptha in Petrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
You didn't mention about the effects of adulteration of diesel with naphtha.

I was just overwhelmed with the irony of this thread - an ENT surgeon explaining to a dentist the finer points of fuel adulteration...
Thanks, what I like about this forum is that members try to understand each and every minute detail. And response times is really quick.

Just like Kerosene is a lighter distillate than Diesel, Naptha is a lighter distillate of crude than Petrol; between light gases and Petrol. Another 'cousin' in 'relative' terms. Since a petrol engine is not tuned for Naptha, combustion will be worse and cause excessive carbon deposits.

Ideal combustion ends with production of CO2 and H20. Incomplete combustion leaves excess C (carbon) atoms that get deposited.

On the other hand, Kerosene in Petrol lowers the octane rating of the mixture and will cause 'knocking'.

Both types of adulteration are harmful to the engine leading to frequent repairs. Naptha also contains traces of benzene (C6H6) which is a known carcinogen. Hence they are harmful to humans, animals and cause environmental pollution leading to long term exposure. Central and State taxes and revenue are lost. So the true fiscal damage is beyond calculation.
Dr.Sumit Bhatti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2009, 01:01   #29
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 93
Thanked: 28 Times
Cool PDS Kerosene diversion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitha View Post
So, were all the tanker loads of fuel stained through natural clay before filling the tanks of fuel pumps in order to remove the marker and thus avoid detection of adulteration? How can it be practical?
On an average, the consumption pattern of petroleum products in India estimated by PCRA (Petroleum Conservation Research Association) is as follows:

Transport (Petrol, Diesel, CNG, Aviation Fuel) : 51%
Industry (Petrol, Diesel, Fuel Oil, Naphtha, Natural Gas): 14%
Commercial & Others : 13%
Domestic (LPG & Kerosene): 18%
Agriculture (Diesel): 4%

TCS (Tata Consultancy Services) and NCAER estimates place PDS Kerosene diversion at an average of 30%.

This means in a worst case scenario, about 3 MMT (Million Metric Tonnes) out of an estimated total hydrocarbon use of 155 MMT in India per annum. (2006 figures) That's about 300,000 Kl (Kilo liters = 1000 litre & density of Kerosene is 0.8) per month across India.

There are now about 40,000 Petrol Pumps in India. That works out to about 7.5 Kl per month per Petrol Pump.

The average throughput or sale per Retail Outlet / Petrol Pump in India is between 150 to 275 Kl per month.

So all Petrol pumps obviously cannot be adulterating fuel with Kerosene. Relax, there just isn't enough available!

And no one transports 1000 litres at a time. It means that about 25,000 tank truck loads of diverted Kerosene per month across India. So there must about 600 tank trucks of diverted PDS Kerosene per day across India ! (assuming one tank truck makes only one trip per day and average capacity 16 Kl).

I once met a Highway Petrol Dealer who insisted that he never mixed fuel in his underground tanks: He sold only pure Kerosene at night and filled and sold only pure Diesel during the day !!
Dr.Sumit Bhatti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2009, 01:37   #30
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pune
Posts: 93
Thanked: 28 Times
Cool No information on drugs from the Drug Lords?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
I don't seem to be able to elicit any information from the oil co. sources as to the use of Authentix in India a couple of years ago. Could you please give us some more details as to when this was used and for what period? Also, any media reports exist about this?
This is current news: please try the link below:

Tamper-proof kerosene: there’s proof it can be tampered

I was, however, closely involved in marker research and have seen these incidents unfold in real time. In fact, a Petrol Dealer from Mumbai introduced the concept of marker system to the Indian Oil Industry.
The then Hon. Petroleum Minister Shri Ram Naik, admonished the crestfallen Oil Industry Officials after that presentation to the Ministry. His words were: " The Petrol Dealers are telling me about what you should have told me first !"

One of the early contacts was with the firm Rohm & Haas, (USA). Extensive field usage has been done through Vashi Supply Terminal. Many BHP-ians must have unknowingly filled this marked fuel. Reading was through a spectrometer.
Fuel samples were checked, but Petrol Dealers were kept in the dark. Then, in the NCR, 4 Petrol Pumps were to share a spectrometer kit. This had to be fought for as the Oil Companies were doping the fuel but not letting Petrol Dealers to check before decanting the tank truck supply into their underground tanks.

Other markers under active consideration are from firms like
1. BASF (Germany), Marker: Sudan 77A
2. GFI (Israel), Marker: Petromark
3. UCM (USA). Marker: 1494DB

You must be wondering how so much information is available and still your oil company sources are ignorant. Adulteration is a worldwide problem. Naptha adulteration was a big problem in Australia! Oil Companies abroad also use exclusive markers to differentiate their own product and to ensure that Petrol Pump contracts are honored.

The hunt for an ideal fuel marker in India is still on !
Dr.Sumit Bhatti is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Diff between Speed diesel, Xtra premium diesel and regular diesel msk_kapoor Technical Stuff 90 26th July 2012 21:53
Altis Diesel vs Micra Diesel ! Is Altis Diesel still underpowered ??? Hero Puch The Indian Car Scene 13 8th April 2011 16:20
Help Choose: City vs Fiesta Diesel vs Verna Diesel vs Swift Diesel aseem Hatchbacks 21 11th October 2009 17:44
Urgent! Ford Fiesta Diesel, Logan Diesel vs Hyndai Verna Diesel Zahir Sedans 3 26th May 2008 10:37
Diesel engines -- different types and good diesel vehicles FourXFour Technical Stuff 3 23rd September 2006 08:57


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 17:47.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks