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Old 11th February 2009, 15:20   #16
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If its a minor leak it will work for some time, but eventually time will come to replace. On the other hand you run it the leaked fluid will fall on pad etc and reduce the life and can even cause unwanted phenomenon like a 360 deg spin at high speed braking, do you want to really take a chance with this?

My vote just replace it, though doubt 2k for cylinders (only chance they might be SGP) try MGP works the same and at a much cheaper cost.
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Old 11th February 2009, 15:32   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
Dual circuit brakes have a dual/tandem master cylinder and a dual-chamber reservoir.
Leakage in one wheel's piping can drain half of the system, but the other half stays fully functional.
Dual/tandem master cylinders yes, but reservoir no. At least on in any car with dual circuit brakes I have seen, M800, Zen, Alto, Esteem, Santro, Accent.
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Old 11th February 2009, 16:44   #18
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
do you want to really take a chance with this?
Of course not! You may not have noticed because of my lengthy posts, but the decision has been made by now to get it replaced. I have continued the discussion in order to get better idea about the system.

What is usual practice when it comes to replacing this part- is it replaced as a whole cylinder or rubber/plastic parts inside (like may be piston rings, seals etc.)?

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My vote just replace it, though doubt 2k for cylinders (only chance they might be SGP) try MGP works the same and at a much cheaper cost.
Do we have a choice here? I thought it would be available as either MGP (if locally made/assembled) or SGP otherwise (imported).
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Old 11th February 2009, 17:10   #19
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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Dual/tandem master cylinders yes, but reservoir no. At least on in any car with dual circuit brakes I have seen, M800, Zen, Alto, Esteem, Santro, Accent.
Sorry, you have to look again. There is no point naming the cars.
If it is dual-circuit brakes, the reservoir will be a two compartment affair.
Please do not confuse with the fact that there is only one filling hole to top up the reservoir!
As far as I am concerned, my Gypsy, WagonRs and Scorpio 2.6CRDe 4X4, ALL have a dual compartment reservoir!

If oil leaks from failure of any ONE pipe, half of the dual-circuit system will get drained. The other half, working on two diagonally placed wheels, will carry on working!

Kindly correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 11th February 2009, 21:02   #20
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Originally Posted by santosh.s View Post
.............
What is usual practice when it comes to replacing this part- is it replaced as a whole cylinder or rubber/plastic parts inside (like may be piston rings, seals etc.)? .................
For my Zen, whole cylinder assembly was replaced.
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Old 12th February 2009, 00:09   #21
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Today I had a closer look at the reservoir. As expected it does have two connections at the bottom, one each for primary and secondary master cylinders. Even internally it is partitioned into two parts (below MIN level where float sensor is located).

While doing this, I noticed another suspicious thing- the fluid seemed to have a lot of dirt! Not dust, but it looks like some creamy material suspended throughout the fluid. It was replaced exactly a week ago, so I would expect it to be clear. Another problem?? or is this normal? I am concerned
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Old 12th February 2009, 08:55   #22
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Originally Posted by santosh.s View Post
While doing this, I noticed another suspicious thing- the fluid seemed to have a lot of dirt! Not dust, but it looks like some creamy material suspended throughout the fluid. It was replaced exactly a week ago, so I would expect it to be clear. Another problem?? or is this normal?
It could be one of two things:
1) Emulsification.
2) Severe frothing due to improper purging.

Both are undesirable and are not normal!
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Old 12th February 2009, 09:17   #23
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That means I should go back to the service center and complain?
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Old 12th February 2009, 10:22   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
Sorry, you have to look again. There is no point naming the cars.
If it is dual-circuit brakes, the reservoir will be a two compartment affair.
Please do not confuse with the fact that there is only one filling hole to top up the reservoir!
As far as I am concerned, my Gypsy, WagonRs and Scorpio 2.6CRDe 4X4, ALL have a dual compartment reservoir!

If oil leaks from failure of any ONE pipe, half of the dual-circuit system will get drained. The other half, working on two diagonally placed wheels, will carry on working!

Kindly correct me if I am wrong.
Yes and no. Since the main reservoir is the same ultimately the oil goes out and brakes fail. I had a friend suffer total brake failure on his M800 many years ago. He kept on driving with the warning light on while the rear left pipe connection was merrily leaking. Finally he was left with no brakes, fortunately on the campus in his driveway!

As for the rubber parts v. full assembly, if the car is not too old (say under 3 years/30000km) you can get away with the rubber parts alone. However, one never know - if there is a burr or something in the internals then the rubber parts may again wear out prematurely. The safer option is the full assembly.
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Old 12th February 2009, 11:24   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s View Post
What is usual practice when it comes to replacing this part- is it replaced as a whole cylinder or rubber/plastic parts inside (like may be piston rings, seals etc.)?

Do we have a choice here? I thought it would be available as either MGP (if locally made/assembled) or SGP otherwise (imported).
MASS would just replace the cylinder, repair kit were available for minor salvageable leaks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s View Post
Today I had a closer look at the reservoir. As expected it does have two connections at the bottom, one each for primary and secondary master cylinders. Even internally it is partitioned into two parts (below MIN level where float sensor is located).

While doing this, I noticed another suspicious thing- the fluid seemed to have a lot of dirt! Not dust, but it looks like some creamy material suspended throughout the fluid. It was replaced exactly a week ago, so I would expect it to be clear. Another problem?? or is this normal? I am concerned
Flush the circuit completely when you do the job, and fill up with new fluid. Can be water that got into the fluid.
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Old 12th February 2009, 13:48   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Yes and no. Since the main reservoir is the same ultimately the oil goes out and brakes fail. I had a friend suffer total brake failure on his M800 many years ago. He kept on driving with the warning light on while the rear left pipe connection was merrily leaking. Finally he was left with no brakes, fortunately on the campus in his driveway!
One of my colleagues also ignored warning thinking there might be some problem with handbrake or it's switch He faced failed brakes after a couple of days but fortunately there was no harm. I wish brake-light and brake-fluid warning lights were separate! People should know that dashboard warnings are not to be taken lightly.

By any chance, did older cars have single circuit system (hope not). The example given above was a zen (carburetor) 2000 model. If all brakes are going to fail soon after reservoir gets empty, then dual circuit doesn't make any sense to me.

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Quote:
As for the rubber parts v. full assembly, if the car is not too old (say under 3 years/30000km) you can get away with the rubber parts alone. However, one never know - if there is a burr or something in the internals then the rubber parts may again wear out prematurely. The safer option is the full assembly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
MASS would just replace the cylinder, repair kit were available for minor salvageable leaks.
In my case it is very minor leak, as I have been telling. There is no dripping as such, no visible depletion of fluid, so it is "onset of a later leak" at the best.

Even then I will change the whole cylinder itself, because it will leak again if I changed only rubber parts and there is some fault with metal part that causes rubber wear. I don't mind letting MASS guy get the benefit of doubt


Quote:
Flush the circuit completely when you do the job, and fill up with new fluid. Can be water that got into the fluid.
I think this "dirt" may be due to old fluid which was used for 3 years instead of recommended life of 2 years (plain ignorance on part of service guys, I am going provide this feedback to Maruti!). Since the fluid was changed last week, it implies flushing was done. I got it done in my presence. One guy was pouring new fluid while the other guys were pumping and draining out old fluid. The reservoir was kept half full during this process, which I suppose should be recommended practice (mentioned in the service manual as well). Next time, I guess I will get the reservoir removed and cleaned before adding new fluid.

Another possible reason could be this- a while ago (when the leakage symptoms were not known), I had used a metal and plastic rods to test the float inside reservoir. Could it have caused contamination? Is brake fluid so sensitive to contamination? (I had ensured that those rods were reasonably clean, though!)
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Old 12th February 2009, 13:53   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Yes and no. Since the main reservoir is the same ultimately the oil goes out and brakes fail.
Sir, you seem to have missed the essence of my post. The reservoir is a dual chambered affair in cars with dual circuit brakes. Hence, it is, in effect, like having TWO reservoirs.
Kindly take a peek into the insides of such a reservoir. Anyway, if you simply look at the pipes leading out from the reservoir, they'll tell you all you need to know! It simply does not make sense to have two pipes going out from a common tank. One will do just as well!
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Old 12th February 2009, 16:39   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santosh.s View Post
One guy was pouring new fluid while the other guys were pumping and draining out old fluid.
was it done on one wheel or all the 4 wheels? the point i make is obvious i hope.
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Old 12th February 2009, 17:37   #29
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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
was it done on one wheel or all the 4 wheels? the point i make is obvious i hope.
It was done on all four wheels, one by one. There is a prescribed sequence also in the service manual, if I remember correctly. But no idea whether they followed that sequence as such. In any case, for each wheel they ensured that all of the old black stuff was completely flushed out, and moved to the next wheel only when clear new fluid showed up in the drain pipe.

I think dirt in the reservoir would have remained there in spite of flushing since it was always kept half filled (otherwise air would enter into hydraulic circuit). It is very likely that whatever came in the path of two compartments/outlets to master cylinders got cleaned and flushed, but there is a kind of 3rd internal compartment where float sits which may not have gotten flushed thoroughly.
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Old 12th February 2009, 17:50   #30
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Brake fluids are hygroscopic. If a can/bottle of fluid has been left standing for long without being tightly capped, the fluid will have absorbed moisture.
This can cause emulsification and will certainly cause lowering of the boiling point of the brake fluid.
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