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Old 19th February 2009, 17:58   #151
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Probably some hypothetical luxury car would have a centralized regulator to supply pure regulated 12V DC to everything.
Amit, I am not sure if any of the expensive/esoteric brands have sensors to confirm presence of battery and a check to see that it is in good order.
Maybe, if any of these checks fail, they might not allow the car to run!

IMO, it would be silly to have regulated power supply for headlamps and tail lamps!
In any case, for battery charging duty some ripple in the current is desirable!
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Old 19th February 2009, 19:06   #152
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Originally Posted by star_aqua View Post
R2D2, please understand that nobody here is asking you to test it on your vehicle. There are certain things which cannot be tested on vehicle and hence needs a test bench. do you know how the automotive systems are tested? please do know what a test bench is and why is it used for and then you try to differentiate between a test bench and a real car.
Yes I have worked on test beds albeit not in the automotive component industry like yourself, but certainly in the Computer & Telecom industry. Are you saying that you are willing to put your knowledge to the test and advise someone to disconnect the car battery. Honestly, I wouldnt do that if I were you.

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and please note that a workshop manual or the wiring diagram will not tell you what features an ECU has and ECU has a seperate manual which will not be given to you and it is only meant for the OEM and it can be used by only calibration engineers.
You see, I dont need the ECU circuit diagram or it's repair manual! If an ECU chip goes bust it is replaced. There's nothing to repair.

A car's workshop manual gives details on how to diagnose, maintain and repair every section of the vehicle. If my car's ECU was controlling the battery in any form then the appropriate diagnostics and repair methods (including error codes) would have been given in the area of the workshop manual which deals with the charging system. The workshop manual also clearly mentions that the person attempting diagnostics and repair should NOT attempt to disconnect the battery. Kudos to you if you know a car better than it's manufacturer!

Cheers!

Last edited by R2D2 : 19th February 2009 at 19:08.
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Old 19th February 2009, 19:56   #153
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
(a) Starting point was an electrical fan would load engine less then mechanical fan of same power consumption rating
Sir, I was the one who made that statement in the gypsy modification thread, wherein all this "gyan" happened and one of the mods decided to dedicate a thread..

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(b) then some one said that alternators charge battery for free ( implying no load on engine )
Again it was me, but i did not imply no load on the engine!

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(c) then there was another gem from another gentleman that alternator is not the sole primary source of charge in a car ( what else is there ? a nuclear reactor )
Oh no, thats no me!

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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
(d) fully knowing that alternator Voltage is approx 14 V and battery is 12 V and they are connected in parallel still people go on arguing that current will be drawn from battery , I hope people do remember that Michael Farady proved couple of centuries ago that charge flows from higher potential to lower.
Oh me,

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(e) Battery is a must because it's capacitance is required to protect ractifier.
Thanks, atleast you agree that the battery is necessary!

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Very small reverse currents can fry a diode. This can result in either a shorted diode or an open circuit.

In the correct conductance direction, the diode will get fried only if current much larger than its rating is allowed to flow, ...
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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
My intention was simply to clarify that once a car has been started, the role of the battery is pretty much over as it is the alternator that supplies all the requirements of the car!

I am not the least interested in finding out WHICH cars will run for how long etc..etc...!



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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
The workshop manual also clearly mentions that the person attempting diagnostics and repair should NOT attempt to disconnect the battery. Kudos to you if you know a car better than it's manufacturer!
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Old 19th February 2009, 20:06   #154
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Thanks, atleast you agree that the battery is necessary!

No Sir please reread my entire post no where I agreed it is necessary
and I fail to understand how you can interpret it that way when I am clearly
explaining at great lengths that battery capacitance or reverse current has nothing to do with rectifier or regulators functioning.

My sole intention was to put it from perspective how electrical system works.

My posts were not about weather you can start a particular car and run it or not as I am not commenting on possibility that some car may have ultra-sophisticated monitoring system as I do not know enough about those cars
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Old 19th February 2009, 20:30   #155
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Hasn't this thread become a trifle too complicated?

Actually, it would be very informative if we allowed headers to say what EXACTLY his contention is.

Then we'll see how it goes.

Headers, it would be nice if you could please post what it is you are disagreeing about and what you think/know it should be.
Let's kind of do a recap of things.
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Old 19th February 2009, 20:55   #156
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Actually, it would be very informative if we allowed headers to say what EXACTLY his contention is.

Then we'll see how it goes.

Headers, it would be nice if you could please post what it is you are disagreeing about and what you think/know it should be.
Let's kind of do a recap of things.

Thanks for the bait and I am biting it: LOL

Well I started off in the gypsy thread stating that "My gypsy has an thermostat controlled electric fan instead of the mechanical fan driven by the fan belt. I also stated that this has less load on the engine."

Now, what I meant was that instead of the fan-belt driven fan, the electric fan is better as the load is little on the vehicle.

Why the thread got diverted and we have a new thread is for everyone to comprehend by themselves. I'm still foxed at that!

Anyways thanks for a lot of information I did not know much!

Cheers

Mods could close the thread if Anup agrees!
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Old 19th February 2009, 21:10   #157
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
Well I started off in the gypsy thread stating that "My gypsy has an thermostat controlled electric fan instead of the mechanical fan driven by the fan belt. I also stated that this has less load on the engine."

Now, what I meant was that instead of the fan-belt driven fan, the electric fan is better as the load is little on the vehicle.
Having highlighted your contention, I shall leave it for readers to judge.
I must emphasize that I do not agree with this! The difference, if any, would be marginal/negligible!

I see no need for the thread to be closed!
There might be others who'd like to comment and we can ALL gain by that knowledge.
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Old 19th February 2009, 21:19   #158
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Originally Posted by gigy View Post
i will post the picture of actual circuit diagram of my baleno. hope it will help in clarifying many of our doubts.
Gigy, dude, your power supply and alt diagrams dont depict the ECU anywhere! How in the world does it work?!

Rgds,
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Old 19th February 2009, 21:52   #159
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Gigy, dude, your power supply and alt diagrams dont depict the ECU anywhere! How in the world does it work?!
R2D2, this thread is not about how ECUs work! Or are you asking something else?
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Old 19th February 2009, 22:08   #160
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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
R2D2, this thread is not about how ECUs work! Or are you asking something else?
It was a tongue in cheek reply and a reference to another post of mine on ECUs, charging systems et al.

Cheers!
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Old 19th February 2009, 22:16   #161
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
It was a tongue in cheek reply and a reference to another post of mine on ECUs, charging systems et al.
Heck, I should have known!
It's always late evenings and KF that do this!
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Old 19th February 2009, 22:31   #162
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Heck, I should have known!
It's always late evenings and KF that do this!
LOL Well, I am kinda in high 'spirits' too! It's a saviour after a rough day at work.

Cheers!
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Old 20th February 2009, 06:48   #163
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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post

I wouldn't want to argue about ALL cars in Alberta or anywhere. Suffice is it to say that most cars' alternators will manage to charge the battery even at idle, provided there are no retro fitted loads being kept on.

Oh, and may I suggest that it might be that your alternator is not working at full efficiency?

In case of any doubts, it would be helpful for all of us if you could verify with the engineers at your place of work.
I see what you mean here. When the cars are kept idling here during winter before people get in, the heater is usually on at full blast to warm up the car (when it's -40 outside ). So I guess the alternator was dedicated to running the heater all the time and didn't get enough time to charge the battery.
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Old 20th February 2009, 07:36   #164
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Originally Posted by sujaylahiri View Post
the heater is usually on at full blast to warm up the car (when it's -40 outside ). So I guess the alternator was dedicated to running the heater all the time and didn't get enough time to charge the battery.
Another difference in cars sold in cold countries is that the cabin heaters are electrical. In India, most cars have heaters that work off the engine coolant!
They take forever to warm the cabin at the start of the day!

Last edited by anupmathur : 20th February 2009 at 07:38.
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Old 20th February 2009, 11:30   #165
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So why does running extra lights like 90/100 drain the battery.
If the battery is only sitting there and waiting for taking over when the engine is off.
To start the engine, ice or lights.
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