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Old 5th May 2011, 22:09   #691
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Default Re: Delvac1 available in Kochi!!!!!!! :)

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Good news Kochi folks. Delvac1 is now available in kochi. today morning went to their distributor LGB lubricants on LFC road , kaloor. Bought a 5L CAN of Delvac1 for 3960 :-)

Directions to shop - Take the road by the side of Kaloor private bus stand. Go straight for about 1 km. the shop is on the left side

Person to contact - Vinod kumar - 9745008277
just a correction. the road to take is the road opposite kaloor bus stand (SRM road)
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Old 7th May 2011, 20:42   #692
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

Just changed to Shell helix diesel hx6 from servo on my Rocket. Though engine smoothness is way better, engine knocking is felt which wasn't there before. The oil level is right on the max level. Any one experienced this ?
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Old 7th May 2011, 21:05   #693
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

Vdrive. I found that I mistakenly changed to shell helix ultra 5W40 in my swift vdi abs. I should have gone for shell helix diesel ultra or shell helix diesel extra.

After changing to shell helix ultra 5W40 fully synthetic on the 3rd free service, after doing 800 and odd km, engine oil pressure light started to remain on. Had the engine oil pressure sensor changed under warranty as that was found to be defective. Not sure why that happened after doing 800 km from changing the oil. I dint want to analyse more on that and I am happy with it now after the engine oil pressure sensor changed. So my first experience with shell was a bad experience though the oil performance was good for a week from the oil change and is back to normal after the oil pressure sensor was changed without changing the oil that i filled in. Waiting for odo to read 15k km as will be switching to mobile delvac 1. .
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Old 8th May 2011, 06:25   #694
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

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Originally Posted by satish_tns View Post
Vdrive. I found that I mistakenly changed to shell helix ultra 5W40 in my swift vdi abs. I should have gone for shell helix diesel ultra or shell helix diesel extra.

After changing to shell helix ultra 5W40 fully synthetic on the 3rd free service, after doing 800 and odd km, engine oil pressure light started to remain on. Had the engine oil pressure sensor changed under warranty as that was found to be defective. Not sure why that happened after doing 800 km from changing the oil. I dint want to analyse more on that and I am happy with it now after the engine oil pressure sensor changed. So my first experience with shell was a bad experience though the oil performance was good for a week from the oil change and is back to normal after the oil pressure sensor was changed without changing the oil that i filled in. Waiting for odo to read 15k km as will be switching to mobile delvac 1. .
If your car is mostly doing in-city rounds, please have 10k as the oil refill cycle if you choose synth - else keep it at 5k (for mineral). And IMHO any oild will feel ok in the first 1000 KM or so. If your oil is of a wrong API spec than what your car needs, its recommended you switch ASAP to the right oil.
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Old 8th May 2011, 10:05   #695
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

Quote:
Originally Posted by satish_tns View Post
Vdrive. I found that I mistakenly changed to shell helix ultra 5W40 in my swift vdi abs. I should have gone for shell helix diesel ultra or shell helix diesel extra.

After changing to shell helix ultra 5W40 fully synthetic on the 3rd free service, after doing 800 and odd km, engine oil pressure light started to remain on. Had the engine oil pressure sensor changed under warranty as that was found to be defective. Not sure why that happened after doing 800 km from changing the oil. I dint want to analyse more on that and I am happy with it now after the engine oil pressure sensor changed. So my first experience with shell was a bad experience though the oil performance was good for a week from the oil change and is back to normal after the oil pressure sensor was changed without changing the oil that i filled in. Waiting for odo to read 15k km as will be switching to mobile delvac 1. .
@ Satish - Always check if your oil meets the recommended standard. Else, don't use it even if it's a synthetic. Helix diesel ultra is API CF whereas your owner's manual most likely recommends a CH-4 oil or above.
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Old 8th May 2011, 14:04   #696
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

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Originally Posted by satish_tns View Post
shell helix ultra 5W40...swift vdi abs.
...
after doing 800 and odd km, engine oil pressure light started to remain on.
....
Waiting for odo to read 15k km as will be switching to mobile delvac 1. .
@satish - The MJD needs oil that is atleast CI4 rated. The 5W50 is definitely not CI4. The new generation oils have better detergents to cater to the EGR , WGT etc to keep the oil working without significant degradation of lubrication properties

The oil sensor going bad may or may not be related but with all the exhaust gases compressed along with clean air the possibility of the former is quite high

Please change the oil asap to one that is as per specs in the manaul

Cheers
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Old 8th May 2011, 15:47   #697
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

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Originally Posted by csateesh View Post
@satish - The MJD needs oil that is atleast CI4 rated. The 5W50 is definitely not CI4. The new generation oils have better detergents to cater to the EGR , VGT etc to keep the oil working without significant degradation of lubrication properties

The oil sensor going bad may or may not be related but with all the exhaust gases compressed along with clean air the possibility of the former is quite high

Please change the oil asap to one that is as per specs in the manaul

Cheers
A related query and I am very confused about this. All fully synthetic oils except Delvac 1 are API CF for diesel engine. So all of them are not good for a CRDI engine? I wonder then how Fiat has approved Selenia WR 5W40 for use in it's Diesel MJD engines. Selenia is also API CF. Infact, I have never seen any A.S.S fill Delvac 1. All of them fill API CF rated synthetics (Mobil1, Castrol EDGE, Shell Ultra etc.) if the customer wants to use synthetic in diesel engine. Can all of them be wrong or are we missing anything?

I think we are ignoring the fact that many CF rated oils are approved by the OEM's despite of their CF rating. I think Mobil 1, Castrol EDGE and Shell Helix Ultra like Selenia are approved by FIAT for use in MJD engine.

If it's still wrong to use these oils in diesel engines then the only choices diesel CRDI onwers have is to use diesel specific minerals (CH4 or above) or Delvac 1. Any thoughts?
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Old 8th May 2011, 17:00   #698
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

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Originally Posted by amit1234singla View Post
A related query and I am very confused about this. All fully synthetic oils except Delvac 1 are API CF for diesel engine. So all of them are not good for a CRDI engine? I wonder then how Fiat has approved Selenia WR 5W40 for use in it's Diesel MJD engines. Selenia is also API CF. Infact, I have never seen any A.S.S fill Delvac 1. All of them fill API CF rated synthetics (Mobil1, Castrol EDGE, Shell Ultra etc.) if the customer wants to use synthetic in diesel engine. Can all of them be wrong or are we missing anything?

I think we are ignoring the fact that many CF rated oils are approved by the OEM's despite of their CF rating. I think Mobil 1, Castrol EDGE and Shell Helix Ultra like Selenia are approved by FIAT for use in MJD engine.

If it's still wrong to use these oils in diesel engines then the only choices diesel CRDI onwers have is to use diesel specific minerals (CH4 or above) or Delvac 1. Any thoughts?
+1

Exactly my thought too.Either the A*S*S dont have any awareness about this rating or the manufacturers dont track or control the oil used in the A*S*S!Even in hyundai service center they use the same helix oil for both petrol and diesel.I dont know if they atleast put different mineral oil for petrol /diesel atleast
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Old 8th May 2011, 18:05   #699
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

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Originally Posted by amit1234singla View Post
A related query and I am very confused about this. All fully synthetic oils except Delvac 1 are API CF for diesel engine. So all of them are not good for a CRDI engine? I wonder then how Fiat has approved Selenia WR 5W40 for use in it's Diesel MJD engines. Selenia is also API CF. Infact, I have never seen any A.S.S fill Delvac 1. All of them fill API CF rated synthetics (Mobil1, Castrol EDGE, Shell Ultra etc.) if the customer wants to use synthetic in diesel engine. Can all of them be wrong or are we missing anything?

I think we are ignoring the fact that many CF rated oils are approved by the OEM's despite of their CF rating. I think Mobil 1, Castrol EDGE and Shell Helix Ultra like Selenia are approved by FIAT for use in MJD engine.

If it's still wrong to use these oils in diesel engines then the only choices diesel CRDI onwers have is to use diesel specific minerals (CH4 or above) or Delvac 1. Any thoughts?
Here is a quick reckoner on various certifications available for engine oils. Oils manufacturers design their oil to meet / exceed the requirements of these certifications, and vehicle manufacturers specify engine oil requirements considering the fuel standard, quality, and lubrication requirements required from the oil (among various other factors) to keep the engine ticking away.

Standards defined by Associations
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API Service Categories - American Petroleum Institute represents about 400 petroleum corporations. he association’s chief functions on behalf of the industry include advocacy and negotiation with governmental, legal, and regulatory agencies; research into economic, toxicological, and environmental effects; establishment and certification of industry standards; and education outreach. API both funds and conducts research related to many aspects of the petroleum industry.

Apart from other activities, API also defines industry standards that comply with legislative and regulatory requirements, and safeguard health, ensure safety, and protect the environment. Each publication is overseen by a committee of leading industry professionals. API's publications are developed by member company engineers and other professionals.

The current standards defined by API is available here

ACEA - Association des Constructeurs Européens d’Automobiles, denotes the agreement between the European Manufacturers and the European Commission to limit the amount of carbon dioxide emitted by passenger cars sold in Europe.

The 2010 ACEA Oil Sequence Guide is available here - it is a detailed report, with Page 5 & 6 explaining what we need to know.


SAE - Society of Automobile Engineers has established a numerical code system for grading motor oils according to their viscosity characteristics. SAE viscosity gradings include the following, from low to high viscosity: 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50 or 60. The numbers 0, 5, 10, 15 and 25 are suffixed with the letter W, designating their "winter" (not "weight") or cold-start viscosity, at lower temperature. The number 20 comes with or without a W, depending on whether it is being used to denote a cold or hot viscosity grade.

Note that the SAE has a separate viscosity rating system for gear, axle, and manual transmission oils, which should not be confused with engine oil viscosity. The higher numbers of a gear oil (eg 75W-140) do not mean that it has higher viscosity than an engine oil.

ILSAC - International Lubricants Standardization and Approval Committee, is formed in 1992 by AAMA (American Automobile Manufacturers Association, representatives of DaimlerChrysler Corporation, Ford Motor Company and General Motors Corporation) and JAMA (Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association) to define the need, parameters, licensing and administration of lubricant specifications. In general, ILSAC works with API in creating the newest gasoline oil specification, with ILSAC adding an extra requirement of fuel economy testing to their specification.

ILSAC, API, SAE and ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials) form the Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System (EOLCS).
Standards Defined by Manufacturers
Quote:
By the early 1990s, many of the European original equipment manufacturer (OEM) car manufacturers felt that the direction of the American API oil standards was not compatible with the needs of a motor oil to be used in their motors. As a result many leading European motor manufacturers created and developed their own "OEM" oil standards.

BMW
  • BMW Longlife-98 - Special long-life engine oil, approved by BMW. Also meets ACEA A3/B3, API SJ/CD, EC SAE 5W-40. Usually required for BMWs manufactured before MY 2002.
  • BMW Longlife-01 - Special BMW approval for fully synthetic long-life oil. Product meets ACEA A3/B3 and API: SJ/CD EC-II. Usually required for BMWs built after MY 2002. Can also be used where a BMW Longlife-98 oil is recommended.
  • BMW Longlife-04 - Special BMW approval for fully synthetic long-life oil. Viscosities are SAE 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30 and 5W-40. Usually required for BMWs equipped with a diesel particulate filter (DPF). Can also be used where a BMW Longlife-98 or BMW Longlife-01 oil is recommended.

Fiat
Fiat standards qualify the viscosity, cold yield value, tendency to produce foam, corrosion on copper reed, behavior with rubbers and resistance to oxidization. The engine tests assess the performance levels of lubricants in terms of sticking rings, deposits on pistons, wear and also oil consumption of certain diesel and petrol engines which are the most representative of Fiat Auto’s most advanced technologies.
  • Fiat 9.55535-G1 - Qualification for gasoline engine lubricants granting fuel economy and extended drain.
  • Fiat 9.55535-G2 - Qualification for gasoline engine lubricants with standard characteristics.
  • Fiat 9.55535-H2 - Qualification for gasoline engine lubricants, granting high performances and high viscosity at high temperatures. OEM recommended product also meets API: SM, ACEA A3-04/B3-04.
  • Fiat 9.55535-H3 - Qualification for gasoline engine lubricants granting very high performances.
  • Fiat 9.55535-D2 - Qualification for Diesel engine lubricants with standard characteristics.
  • Fiat 9.55535-M2 - Qualification for lubricants with extended drain. OEM recommended product also meets ACEA B3-04/B4-04, GM-LL-B-025.
  • Fiat 9.55535-N2 - Qualification for lubricants with a very good characteristics for turbocharged engines, Diesel and gasoline, with extended drain. Minimum requirement is ACEA A3/B4-04.
  • Fiat 9.55535-S1 - Qualification for Diesel and gasoline engine, with exhaust treatment system, lubricants, granting fuel economy and extended drain. OEM recommended product is also approved to ACEA C2.
  • Fiat 9.55535-S2 - Qualification for Diesel and gasoline engine, with exhaust treatment system, lubricants, with extended drain. OEM recommended product also meets: ACEA C3-04, MB 229.51 and API: SM/CF.

Ford
  • Ford M2C913-A - Engine oil, Initial and service fill, SAE 5W-30. This specification meets the ILSAC GF-2 and ACEA A1-98 and B1-98 and additional Ford requirements.
  • Ford M2C913-B - The Ford M2C913-B specification is released in Europe for initial fill engine oils used for lubrication of spark ignition engines using gasoline and for compression ignition engines using diesel fuels. The specification is also used to define engine oils for servicing Ford engines where applicable. The oil shall meet all the requirements of the ILSAC GF-2 and GF-3 specification, the ACEA A1-98 and B1-98 specification and additional Ford requirements.
  • Ford M2C913-C - Fully backwards compatible and is strongly recommended for all applications that currently require the specification Ford M2C913-B. The new engine oil provides various benefits to the customer such as improved fuel economy benefits and high robustness to biodiesel fuels.
  • Ford M2C917-A - Viscosity SAE 5W40 engine oil for pump injector diesel engines.
  • Ford M2C934-A - Extended drain engine oil for vehicles equipped with diesel particulate filter (DPF).

GM
  • GM-LL-A-025 - Special GM approval for long-life engine oil for gasoline engines. Viscosity is SAE 0W-30. Product meets ACEA A3/B3.
  • GM-LL-B-025 - Special GM approval for long-life engine oil for diesel engines. Viscosity is SAE 5W-40. Product meets ACEA A3/B3/B4.

Merc
The name of the MB specifications derives from the Mercedes-Benz Specifications for Operating Fluids (MB BeVo), divided by numbered paragraphs and pages.
  • MB 229.1 - For petrol and diesel engines. Minimum quality required ACEA A2/B2 with additional limits on engine.
  • MB 229.3 - For petrol and diesel engines. Minimum quality required ACEA A3 / B3 / B4 and MB 229.1. It can only certify 0/ 5 W-x oils.
  • MB 229.31 - Multigrade, low SPAsh engine oil, advised for both diesel and petrol engines of Mercedes Benz, Smart and Chrysler. Only low viscosity engine oils which can realize a 1,0% saving on used fuel in the M111 Fuel economy test (CEC L-54-T-96) can get this approval. In this test the fuel savings are compared to the performance of the Reference oil RL 191 (SAE 15W-40).
  • MB 229.5 - MB sheet for energy conserving oils for certain car and van engines. Approved oils must meet ACEA A3, B3 and B4 specification and some additional demands by Daimler Chrysler AG. Oil must be on the approval list.
  • MB 229.51 - Low SAPS Long Life engine oil for diesel engines with particle filter meeting emission EU-4 -> standards.

VW
Volkswagen introduced its own motor oil specifications in mid '90s. Since then this classification system is the starting point for selecting the technically suitable products for all vehicles manufacutred by the VW group (Volkswagen, Audi, Seat, Skoda).
  • VW 500.00 – VW spec for multigrade engine oils for petrol engines with SAE 5W-X/10W-X viscosity for engines built up until August 1999 (MY 2000).
  • VW 500.00 + 505.00 – Oil meets both VW 500.00 and 505.00 spec.
  • VW 501.01 – VW spec for petrol engines for engines built up until August 1999 (MY 2000).
  • VW 501.14 – Brake fluid with low viscosity, VW 2006>.
  • VW 502.00 – VW spec, oil for petrol engines. Successor of VW 501.01 & 500.00 spec.
  • VW 503.00 – Long-life petrol engine oil for VW cars with WIV. Meets ACEA A1, SAE 0W-30 or 5W-30. Suitable for the AUDI S4, engines with an output greater than 180bhp should use 503.01 or 504.00/507.00.
  • VW 503.01 – Special engine oil for some VW petrol engines. SAE 5W-30. Suitable for the Ausi RS4, TT, S3 and A8 6.0 V12.
  • VW 504.00 – Long-life petrol engines with WIV.
  • VW 505.00 – Passanger car diesel engine oil, minimum performance level CCMC PD-2. Lists viscosities:- SAE 5W-50, 10W-50/60, 15W-40/50, 20W-40/50 requiring 13% max evaporation loss and SAE 5W-30/40, 10W-30/40 requiring 15% max evaporation loss.
  • VW 505.01 – Special engine oil for VW turbodiesel with pump-injector-unit and for the V8 commonrail turbodiesel engines. Meets ACEA B4 SAE 5W-40 spec.
  • VW 506.00 – Special long-life engine oil for turbodiesel engines with WIV, viscosity is SAE 0W-30.
  • VW 506.01 – Special long-life oil for turbodiesel engines with pump-injector-unit with WIV.
  • VW 507.00 – Long-life diesel engine oil with WIV.
  • VW 508.00 – Fuel economy low saps oil in development.
Note: This is not comprehensive. Content quoted from Wikipedia, oilspecifications.org, my-gti.com and respective associations' and manufacturers' websites.

Back to @amit1234singla's question - The owner's manual of your car would have, in most probability, mentioned one of the standards I have listed above. For all QJD / MJD / DDiS, it might be a Fiat specification (I'm not sure - Rad the manual!). If the oil in question meets Fiat's recommendation, then you do not have to worry about API or other standard. SAE rating for viscosity would still need to be followed, mind you.

To summarize - the right way to choose your engine oil is to read the manual to
  1. Find the engine oil specification of your car's manufacturer
  2. Find the SAE viscosity requirements specified by your manufacturer for the operating temperature ranges most suited for where you live
  3. Find an oil that meets these two
  4. Ignore specifications in the oil can other than those listed out by the manufacturer, even if they seem outdated!

And finally, Hyundai goes by API - my Getz CRDi needs API - CH4 or higher

Last edited by ph03n!x : 8th May 2011 at 18:07.
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Old 8th May 2011, 22:47   #700
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

Guys, I had been to the Fiat free check-up camp on when it happened a few days back in Blr. The essential oil top ups were done, the under body was checked and the car was then washed.

But, after the engine oil top-up, I somehow feel the smoothness (I mean the in-cabin engine noise) of the engine seems to have gone down. The engine seemed very smooth prior to the oil top-up. Considering that the car has done ~12.5k without an oil change, could it be that the topped-up oil might have something to do with the loss in smoothness? In the sense, does mixing a small quantity of fresh engine oil have any impact?
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Old 9th May 2011, 09:53   #701
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

Good news for Diesel Heads in Chennai - Mobil Delvac 1 is available off the shelf. Anyone interested? The distributor called in just now, said he currently has 8 cans of 5 liter each, and will call me back with the pricing in sometime.
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Old 9th May 2011, 11:20   #702
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

Quote:
Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
  1. Find the engine oil specification of your car's manufacturer
  2. Find the SAE viscosity requirements specified by your manufacturer for the operating temperature ranges most suited for where you live
  3. Find an oil that meets these two
  4. Ignore specifications in the oil can other than those listed out by the manufacturer, even if they seem outdated!

And finally, Hyundai goes by API - my Getz CRDi needs API - CH4 or higher
Good Amount of info there ph03n!x !!



The key is to ensure that the oil meets the specifications. It doesn't matter what the A.S.S thinks as most of them can't differentiate between a mineral oil and synthetic oil.

Please check for the oil grade and ensure that it does meet the requirements.

MJD's / DDiS / QJD needs API-CI4 spec oil nothing less.

And the 5w40 doesn't meet the requirement.

@amit1234singla,@satish - If the oil doesn't meet the mimimum API spec please do not use these oils.

Cheers
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Old 9th May 2011, 11:35   #703
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

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MJD's / DDiS / QJD needs API-CI4 spec oil nothing less.

And the 5w40 doesn't meet the requirement.
I am not sure about the API spec for the Fiat Multijets, as Fiat might have as well gone by one of their own standards.

And Mobil Delvac 1 is 5W 40 - IMHO most synth have a lower winter viscosity, making them lubricate better at cold startups.
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Old 9th May 2011, 11:51   #704
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

Many companies try and put out their own standards but these are not really different fromt he API specs. Unless it is a Veyron I think API is ecoungh, may be even for a Veyron!
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Old 9th May 2011, 13:04   #705
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Default Re: All about Diesel engine oils

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Many companies try and put out their own standards but these are not really different fromt he API specs. Unless it is a Veyron I think API is ecoungh, may be even for a Veyron!
True, but problem is when A.S.S throws "Warranty" at you - I have known at least two TATA / Fiat owners being told that filling in any other oil except from the A.S.S might give warranty problems - this is for a Punto MJD in Chennai and a Vista QJD in Coimbatore. In such cases having proof of using Fiat approved oil, though bought from outside, might help??

Also, there are questions about TATA-Fiat using oils that are not of the latest / current API grade - could be the oil in question meets Fiat's Specs?
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