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Old 31st July 2017, 12:21   #16
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Default Re: Used Oil Analysis in India

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
If you get the analysis of the metal parts it becomes even more interesting obviously.
Yes, it does get interesting but it costs a lot more when we get the complete analysis done and since mine is a new engine, I didn't bother to go for the complete analysis. Just wanted to know the serviceable life of the oil and whether the oil used by the FASS is genuine or not. I don't remember the exact amount but the quoted amount for complete analysis was upwards of 5,000/- + tax.

The amount quoted even for the above analysis was 2,000 + 15% service tax but I convinced the marketing manager that I need to get this analysis done for my personal car and shelling out 2,300/- for the analysis will not be economically viable for me. Also for 2,300/-, I may get the oil replaced twice and therefore he finally agreed to 600/- + service tax.

In future or when the engine ages, I may go in for complete analysis. Till then the above analysis suffices and helps my purpose
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Old 1st August 2017, 13:07   #17
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Default Re: Engine oil analysis

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Originally Posted by M_power View Post
When I was in USA I used to use Blackstone Labs, check them out at Blackstone Labs its quite informative.
Blackstone's work in used oil analysis has quite the following in other online communities.

In one of my online jaunts on Jalopnik I came across a post where the OP was able to detect the presence of coolant in his oil from elevated levels of coolant markers like Sodium and Potassium.

Another interesting conclusion drawn from Blackstone's July Oil Report is that expensive oil doesn't necessary translate to drastically reduced wear and tear.

Note to Mods: I hope it's acceptable to post links to other forums. Please delete them if necessary.
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Old 1st August 2017, 16:53   #18
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Default Re: Engine oil analysis

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It is, although you will see endless debate on any car forum when it comes to oil and what brand is better. Unless you have the ability to conduct actual laboratory or very larg scale empirical testing, the individual experiences/thoughts around oil quality probably doesnt hold much water.

Earlier, I wrote about the large scale emperical testing I was involved in years ago on marine diesel and we came to the same conclussion. As long as the oil was compliant with the car/engine manufacturer specification the wear and tear tends to be very similar.

As long as you use the proper oil, the state of for instance your air filter is likely to cause more concern when it comes to wear and tear then the oil itself, irrespective of oil manufacturer. Especially in dusty parts of India.

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Old 1st August 2017, 17:14   #19
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Default Re: Used Oil Analysis in India

@auto_enthusiast though the analysis does mention the test results, but there are no values to compare with. There must be standard values or a result of the new oil analysis for comparision.
As Jeroen mentioned, there is no information about the ferrous content which indicates the wear of parts, mainly piston rings and liners. Piston rings and the liners are the parts which are exposed to high temperatures and friction.

If all these values are compared with subsequent results it will help a lot to analyse the condition of engine components.

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Old 1st August 2017, 18:28   #20
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Default Re: Marathon Mile Muncher: Ford Aspire TDCi TAXI @ 50,000 km

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Apart from TBN, all other readings were also well within the specified limits.
Very well. I'd also like to bring in a point here which was posted on Jalopnik. This is how expensive oils (presumably synthetic with a good mix of special additives) compared to regular oils have no advantage.

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The takeaway, Heffelfinger writes, is that despite the additive contents (rows nine through 15) being different (in part, because different brands use different additive blends that all accomplish the same goals), wear across the board seems quite uniform.
http://thegarage.jalopnik.com/why-ex...ney-1797241527

The article in the link above is based on a report published by an independent oil testing agency like the one you sent the oil to. Seems quite authentic and logical.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 15:04   #21
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Default Re: Used Oil Analysis in India

Great Information! never knew that it was possible to get such an analysis done by an Independent lab! It is like taking a blood sample from your car and sending it for analysis.

Reading through got me wondering if a complete analysis of the oil would give extra Information which could be used to estimate the health of the engine itself?. Like already mentioned: metal particle content in the oil could be an indicator of engine health.

If there are other such parameters available in the complete analysis, such a report might come in Handy while buying a used car!
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Old 2nd August 2017, 17:49   #22
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Default Re: Used Oil Analysis in India

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Originally Posted by ishankpatel View Post
Reading through got me wondering if a complete analysis of the oil would give extra Information which could be used to estimate the health of the engine itself?. Like already mentioned: metal particle content in the oil could be an indicator of engine health.
As indicated by others, these sort of reports can be quite comprehensive. In essence anything in the oil can be traced, be it fuel, cooling liquid, metals etc.

As I said before, it's not that often used for cars. Often you will find that an oil change costs about the change, so why bother.

Without wanting to generalize too much or offending anybody; I wasnt that impressed on how Americans do their car maintenance. But for some reason they are obsessed with oil changes. You can get an oil & filter change done on just about any street corner. And for many Americans they will with almost religous zeal change their oil every few 1000 miles. Unfortunately, you will find that is very often the only sort of maintenance they do!

Once your oil is good, you're good to go it seems. Although I'm sure these lab analysis are available in Europe to the true petrol heads, I must admit I havent met anybody using such services. (Other then on racing/rally cars)

But in the end it comes back to just sticking to your manufacturer maintenance schedule and most modern cars will easily clock upwards of 100.000 km without any major problems other then normal wear or tear. You don't have to use expensive oil, just oil that complies with the car manufacturere recommened specifications.

Jeroen
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Old 16th August 2017, 22:53   #23
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Default Re: Used Oil Analysis in India

Very interesting to see this oil analysis report as well as the blackstone report. Thank you very much for sharing.

TBN although is an important parameter, equally important is Total Acidity Number (TAN). The Base or Alkalinity is required to combat the acidity build up from Sulfur and Nitrogen based acid build ups. Also soot itself has a strong polarity, that needs to be countered. Hence many oils start at a TBN of 7 to 12. It depends on the type of application. As the engine runs, acidity (TAN) builds up and it eats away the alkalinity (TBN) and reacts with seals and metals. Depending on the engine and application the engineers set the oil discard point mentioning the lowest TBN # allowed or the highest TAN # allowed which ever comes first.

The Blackstone report is actually very 'kindergarten-ish'. I might be raising a few eye-brows with that comment. You see in my job we track thousands of engines in the field. We do oil analysis every 10 to 14 days on every engine, both new and remanufactured. Based on nearly 2 decades in engine development, let me post a few counter points to the blackstone report below. Please don't take it as a personal attack. Just trying to clear the air on this report. Please accept my humblest apologies if my comments come across as rather harsh.

1. The age of the engine is not used to segregate wear rate, this is extremely critical. Does older engines wear differently with different oils? What if newer car owners being over-enthusiastic sending more samples. The universal average itself is from the same sample, like a self full-filling prophesy.
2. The emission stage of the engine. Is it Tier2 or Tier4. Lower emission engines run at much higher temperature and pressure. Some have EGR which can increase the wear rate. Study after study by lubrication engineers have shown that, lower the emission requirement, closer to synthetic, the oil needs to be. Taking a grandfather’s engine and trying to compare different oils, then apply that take-away to modern low emission engines is very dangerous.
3. The oil change interval is very low. Consider this along with point #2. You need a very detailed study showing age of engine, preferably in MWhrs and not in miles. Because 2 different drivers can ride 10,000 miles in very different ways. One can use a lot more power, and hence put the oil under much higher stress. So miles do not matter. Engine designers prefer MWhrs not miles.
4. Type of filter used. Cellulose vs Synthetic, absolute filtration efficiency value, type of oil filtration method (same engine can have different filtration in different models).
5. Finally, big corporations have millions of $ to spend on just studying the lube system performance year after year. Smaller firms collecting samples send over mail may not be the final word.

So what you really need is an analysis that shows the engine age, MWhrs between oil change, filter used, filtration method, TBN & TAN difference over oil change interval, actual kinematic viscosity etc. You will be surprised, 2 different 5W-30 oils can have different viscosity. 5W-30 is sort of like a bracket. Also use the same brand of oil for a given engine for say 30,000 miles, I mean don’t keep changing the oil brand at every service. Then drive a correlation. In at least one case (Valvoline 5W/30), you can see extremely high Sodium. Does that mean the engine has coolant leak using a particular oil. This does happen, as certain oil additives react with certain type of seals and let small amounts of coolant into oil, increasing engine wear. Hence companies recommend oil specs for each engine. So what was the conclusion from high Na? If you find Na, then a good oil analyst will also look for Potassium, to confirm coolant leak. But Potassium is missing in the table !

After working in engine design long enough, analyzing tons of data, working with experienced lube engineers, I can very confidently say that - In modern low emission engines, type of oil indeed has a significant impact on engine wear and life.
There is a reason auto companies give oil spec and then keep updating it.

Last edited by Czarcarsm : 16th August 2017 at 22:58.
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Old 20th August 2017, 03:37   #24
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Default Re: Used Oil Analysis in India

Czarcarsm,

Pleasure to hear from an expert in this field.

You have correctly mentioned that the oil is not changed but only a top up is done as and when required to maintain the volume or totally replaced if the TBN has gone below the minimum required value. Thats why the engine running hours and the hours in service of the lube oil are require too.

The analysis helps to save a lot of money for these corporations in terms of lube oil consumed year on year and there is a set budget for lube oil which is closely monitored.

Regards.
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