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Old 16th May 2009, 03:35   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kartikkumar View Post
Not sure how or why I missed this thread. I have to say my car has more or less behaved itself with fairly consistent boost over the last 32,000 kms.
So is your car the old model or the new one with digital clock etc. ?
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Old 16th May 2009, 08:15   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram_hyundai View Post
hey ripper did you get your mbbs or did u do a research on turbos for your doctorship,lolz.this guy is rocking.i had a few discussion with some MSIL service guys and i found that earlier the turbo used to cost 45k and now its 15k.Nice that the rates came down isnt it.I would have replaced it every 30k kms @50paise per km cost.
He's become a car doctor

Btw Ram that is a surprising piece of information!! 30grands reduction in price?! MSIL couldn't have achieved it without sacrificing the quality. Do you have any info regarding the make and model of the old and new turbos, are they the same?
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Old 16th May 2009, 11:18   #138
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Not all Swift drivers will be enthusiasts. Most people will not notice the loss of the turbo, since it does spool up later. So by using cheaper turbo's MSL can save a boatload of cash.

Ripper is a specializing in diesel swift turbo issues now.

Last edited by srijit : 16th May 2009 at 11:19.
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Old 16th May 2009, 11:33   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srijit View Post
Not all Swift drivers will be enthusiasts. Most people will not notice the loss of the turbo, since it does spool up later. So by using cheaper turbo's MSL can save a boatload of cash.

Ripper is a specializing in diesel swift turbo issues now.
Aye! The reason why Swift VDi sells like hotcakes is Turbo (10%) and the incredible mileage (90%)
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Old 16th May 2009, 16:23   #140
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I am giving my car for second service on Monday. I have also confirmed that they had put in Mobil Delvac 1300 15W40 oil during the first service. Second service doesn't involve oil change. Should I ask them to change the oil still? Is it necessary as I drive 22Km per day during weekdays every month and rarely 200-250Km during weekends once or twice a month? Will oil change help for the turbo spool to be more prominent? Before servicing the car they are going to check the turbo boost pressure with Tech2 on Monday. The SA was not sure about the default values for the boost pressure which would indicate its normal but he said he will check with another DDIS and make a note of it before checking my car.

Last edited by tush : 16th May 2009 at 16:24.
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Old 16th May 2009, 16:28   #141
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The gurus here recommend an oil change every 5ooo kms.
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Old 18th May 2009, 13:37   #142
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OK here is what happened today at MASS.

Took my car for service and for that turbo reading using Tech2. Now its no more Tech2 the SA said. Its called SDT. Its an upgrade to Tech2 and much more advanced and easy to use. The service engineer who created the job card asked me "Sir aap ARAI mein kaam karte ho kya, ye sab reading le rahe ho". Told him "nahi dost mein Team-bhp mein kaam karta hu". Kidding friends, just told him that I work in an IT company.

Following are the readings from SDT for boost pressure.

Idle 800Rpm(without AC) - 94Kpa
Idle 900Rpm(with AC) - 95Kpa

All the below readings are with AC turned ON.

Note - Its difficult to get the exact reading at 2000rpm as the rpm counter figures change quickly in the device as its real time. Say for example at 1950rpm by the time you look at the pressure reading the rpm is 2025 or 2050 or 2100.

2nd Gear at around 2000rpm - 145-147 Kpa
2nd Gear at around 3200rpm - 194 Kpa

3rd Gear at around 2000rpm - 157 Kpa
3rd Gear at around 3000rpm - 210 Kpa

4th Gear at around 2000rpm - 159 - 167 Kpa (it varied here I dont know why)
4th Gear at around 3000rpm - 210 Kpa

5th Gear at around 2000rpm - 198 Kpa
5th Gear at around 2500rpm - 215 Kpa

I have asked them to change the OIL and even the OIL filter just for the sake of it. The service engineer said by adding additives in the OIL the performance would increase. I just denied him to do that. Told him to do what ever is maruti recommended. The SA said he will himself monitor that the oil is no more then 3.1liter since we are adding a new oil filter. He said we will not check the inter cooler as they will have to open everything from the front the bonet etc and it will take them 5 hours to do this task. As of now he said lets see what improvement I feel after doing this oil and oil filter change.

Now I will go in half an hour to take my car and get the readings again to see what change has it made.

Last edited by tush : 18th May 2009 at 13:44.
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Old 18th May 2009, 18:26   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
actually, the ecu can be tweaked, thats what the remaps are for. just that maruti is not doing it.
I know about remaps, but is it possible on the stock swift ECU, if so can the OBD scanner thing do the job, wont it require a totally different set up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
@ Jaggu : Manufacturers can tweak around with the maps. Don't see a reason why they would not implement a new map if the R&D team found the results to be more promising.
My doubts are mentioned as reply to rippers post, is it that simple as flashing a mobile phone? doesnt it require some more equipment, "if" its possible on a "stock" ecu?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kartikkumar View Post
@jaggu, have been running Servo for over 7000 kms now and have only noticed a slightly noisier and harsher engine (about 15%). Will try the switch to delvac and post results. Thanks for the address and phone numbers.

Cheers all!
Yes i definitely would like to hear from you, if there is a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
I dont think all these cases of slow swifts are due to turbo failing.
I've been told that the following issues can also cause delayed boost/insufficient boost.

clogged air filter
clogged intercooler
clogged EGR system(dont know how)
clogged cat con
faulty wastegate
boost leak

sometimes its a combination.
of these, only the EGR cleaning is difficult because it is very inaccesible, and even that shows up on the tech 2 if it is faulty.
This can be true to a GREAT extend, but apart from air filter clog, the issues should happen only for cars that have run more than 20-30k kms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tush View Post
Following are the readings from SDT for boost pressure.

Idle 800Rpm(without AC) - 94Kpa
Idle 900Rpm(with AC) - 95Kpa

All the below readings are with AC turned ON.

Note - Its difficult to get the exact reading at 2000rpm as the rpm counter figures change quickly in the device as its real time. Say for example at 1950rpm by the time you look at the pressure reading the rpm is 2025 or 2050 or 2100.

2nd Gear at around 2000rpm - 145-147 Kpa
2nd Gear at around 3200rpm - 194 Kpa

3rd Gear at around 2000rpm - 157 Kpa
3rd Gear at around 3000rpm - 210 Kpa

4th Gear at around 2000rpm - 159 - 167 Kpa (it varied here I dont know why)
4th Gear at around 3000rpm - 210 Kpa

5th Gear at around 2000rpm - 198 Kpa
5th Gear at around 2500rpm - 215 Kpa
Very good data gathering thanks. Do post up the post service effect also.
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Old 18th May 2009, 18:40   #144
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Update from my end - Called up the Service Manager at my workshop to complain that I am unhappy with the way the car is running post the 3rd service. He asked me to come over to have the car checked up. Seeing as the workload today was pretty low, I went to the service station and handed over the keys to the Service Manager.

He took a 3-4 Km test drive and said that he felt the car was pulling fine although he agreed that the turbo seemed to be spooling up a little later. Note: The car knocked a bit getting off the line and the Service Manager asked me where I get the diesel filled up and whether I had mixed normal and additive enhanced Diesel. When I replied in negative to the same, he suggested that I wait till the tank is empty and get the fuel filled in at a reliable petrol pump. (For Pune junta - he suggested the pump opposite the RTO - the only issue with this is that it is the same pump that I regularly use)

He himself suggested that we hook the car up to Tech2 to confirm whether there actually is an issue with the readings or not. The readings he checked at idle were (of what I can remember):
Rpm - 796
Boost Pressure - 94kPa
Atmospheric Pressure - 93kPa
EGR Valve - Off (not open or close but 'Off')

There were quite a few other readings including the EGR system, Error codes (none found), A/C pressure, Rail Pressure etc. all readings AOK!!

Next, he pulled out the Maruti Service Manual (Only a small booklet for the Tech2 which had a listing of all the normal readings) and showed me the boost pressure notification which was given as "130 kPa or above @ 3500 rpm" (sic).

He revved the car till 3500 ropm and the reading was 134kPa!!
I also noticed that the EGR valve changed to "On" as soon as the tachometer crossed 1000 rpm.

I then asked him to clean the air filter with pressurised air and he gladly obliged although he did mention that the filter looked as good as new when he took it out (I also explained my experiments with blowing air into the filter a few days ago).

In any case, the air filter cleaning really helped as I feel a perceptible difference in the willingness with which the car moves from a standstill - much smoother.

Another point to note is that he mentioned that this kind of an issue is common with cars that are driven by multiple users as that causes problems with the ECU's adapting to an individual driving style. Another point he made is that the ECU resets itself over cycles of 3000Kms at which point the old data is overwritten and the ECU kind of resets itself - can anyone veruify this claim - if it is true then I shall wait for 12000Kms to come up (car at 11000 right now) and then drive somewhat differently to ensure the car learns that the Turbo boost is what I live for!!
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Old 18th May 2009, 18:54   #145
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About ECU reset, i read some info stating that spirited driving soon after the reset is not good for regular drives, since ECU adapts to aggressive style which will result in loss of low end grunt while driving sedately.

I wanted to try out this experiment but havent been able to due to some reason or other. I think ill give it a try this weekend.

ECU reset i plan to do is: Disconnect battery, press brake pedal to discharge any residual current in the system, leave it idle without power for 1 hour. Reconnect, idle for 5 minutes and drive around for 10 kms or so.

Any other inputs?
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Old 18th May 2009, 21:59   #146
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@tush- thank you for going through all that trouble. I totally get what you're saying about the revs and the boost climbing so quickly that its difficult to read and correlate.
Data logging software will sole that knid of problems, but I'm at a loss to say where we can find one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tush View Post
2nd Gear at around 2000rpm - 145-147 Kpa
2nd Gear at around 3200rpm - 194 Kpa

3rd Gear at around 2000rpm - 157 Kpa
3rd Gear at around 3000rpm - 210 Kpa

4th Gear at around 2000rpm - 159 - 167 Kpa (it varied here I dont know why)
4th Gear at around 3000rpm - 210 Kpa

5th Gear at around 2000rpm - 198 Kpa
5th Gear at around 2500rpm - 215 Kpa
My calculations are based on the following.
please correct me if I'm wrong.

1psi = 6.9kPa, therefore, 15 psi=103kPa
atmospheric pressure at sea level is 1 atm which is roughly 14.7psi
Stock swift makes around 15psi peak boost


total peak boost therefore should be roughly 100+100= 200kpa at 2000rpm, which is where the turbo spools up to max efficiency, when the engine is under full load.
According to the above, you're getting peak boost at 3000rpm in 2nd 3rd and 4th. which is kind of late. did they say thats normal? I cant digest that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBT View Post


He himself suggested that we hook the car up to Tech2 to confirm whether there actually is an issue with the readings or not. The readings he checked at idle were (of what I can remember):
Rpm - 796
Boost Pressure - 94kPa
Atmospheric Pressure - 93kPa
EGR Valve - Off (not open or close but 'Off')

There were quite a few other readings including the EGR system, Error codes (none found), A/C pressure, Rail Pressure etc. all readings AOK!!

Next, he pulled out the Maruti Service Manual (Only a small booklet for the Tech2 which had a listing of all the normal readings) and showed me the boost pressure notification which was given as "130 kPa or above @ 3500 rpm" (sic).

He revved the car till 3500 ropm and the reading was 134kPa!!
I also noticed that the EGR valve changed to "On" as soon as the tachometer crossed 1000 rpm.
was this reading done with the car in neutral? or in gear and accelerating at WOT?
because 135 kPa is only 19psi Total i.e - including the atmospheric pressure, where , actually you should be getting a total of 30psi/200kpa at 2000rpm itself.
If the car was in neutral while the readings were taken, then fine, I cant dispute it, because I dont know enough. but if the car was in gear and being accelerated at WOT- those numbers are not right. atleast, thats what I think.

EGR readings are on/off. I was under the impression that EGR goes off, when the revs rise or hard acceleration is demanded, once the car reaches a steady speed, it goes ON again. can some one confirm with MASS?

Conversions on the units can be done from here
Pressure conversion program calculator - psi to bar to atm
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Old 18th May 2009, 22:34   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
total peak boost therefore should be roughly 100+100= 200kpa at 2000rpm, which is where the turbo spools up to max efficiency, when the engine is under full load.
According to the above, you're getting peak boost at 3000rpm in 2nd 3rd and 4th. which is kind of late. did they say thats normal? I cant digest that.
@ripper: Just debating, how do you explain the below? I have a strong feeling, below readings might be when vehicle is stationary. And readings what tush posted is while being driven.

Boost pressure at idle (BBT's post) i remember seeing similar figures in my car when it had done 10k kms or near.

Also why do you think max boost at 2k? is it derived from max torque rating of the engine or something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBT View Post
Next, he pulled out the Maruti Service Manual (Only a small booklet for the Tech2 which had a listing of all the normal readings) and showed me the boost pressure notification which was given as "130 kPa or above @ 3500 rpm" (sic).
@ripper: Did you take the readings when you did the swap of turbo in between?

Now if someone can get reading out of brand new car, nothing like it
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Old 18th May 2009, 22:47   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
@ripper: Just debating, how do you explain the below? I have a strong feeling, below readings might be when vehicle is stationary. And readings what tush posted is while being driven.
Yes, I think so too, will wait for confirmation


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Also why do you think max boost at 2k? is it derived from max torque rating of the engine or something?
Yes, thats one of the reasons, I think max boost is at 2k.
the other reason is,
when my turbo was damaged, i was getting similar readings, all the boost coming later in the rev range.
Never did check boost numbers on my car when it was new.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
@ripper: Did you take the readings when you did the swap of turbo in between?
Nope!
I wasnt there, when the turbo was swapped in, so couldnt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Now if someone can get reading out of brand new car, nothing like it
+1 to that.
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Old 18th May 2009, 23:13   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post

was this reading done with the car in neutral? or in gear and accelerating at WOT?
because 135 kPa is only 19psi Total i.e - including the atmospheric pressure, where , actually you should be getting a total of 30psi/200kpa at 2000rpm itself.
Those values (pressure unit) should be Absolute, at atmospheric the pressure unit is around 101kpa. so 135kpa should be around 5 psi & 200kpa should be around 13.7 Psi.
How much boost does the stock swift runs from factory?
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Old 18th May 2009, 23:58   #150
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Thanks for dropping in Jitu, i dont think anyone has info on stock readings. Could you let us know from your experience with turbo's, at what rpm's max boost is made and is it corresponding to max torque or bhp rpms? atleast any theories.

Another deduction am making, boost is more at higher gears since there is a ram effect of air from cai/snorkel and/or spooling from earlier revs?

Revs especially since holding rpm close to 2000 and accelerating will give better rush.

Last edited by Jaggu : 19th May 2009 at 00:02.
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