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Old 27th April 2009, 10:11   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
But does maruti mention that such a precaution be taken with the engine? I dont think so. I havent seen it in the Swift DDiS manual,
I do remember reading about this in my Swift LDi manual, but was mentioned in a more subtle way

Last edited by Rehaan : 6th May 2009 at 22:01. Reason: Quote fixed.
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Old 27th April 2009, 10:38   #47
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Default Swift DDiS - Manual Clarification

The Swift DDiS manual does mention that after hard driving one should let the engine idle for a minute or two before switching it off in order to "prolong" the life of the turbocharger. However, there is no mention of not zooming off immediately - although, in general, it is recommended that the engine should be warmed up before you try any theatrics (read reaching the higher revs).

BTW - I drove a friend's MultiJet Linea earlier last week and am happy to report that the VGT isn't as much fun as the Swift's Linear Geometry Turbo
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Old 27th April 2009, 16:26   #48
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Hi DieselFan,

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Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post
It is sad to hear that trrk. high speed needs precision manufacturing and good QC. Both are a suspect with Tatas or their vendors.
I hope you meant that you are sad that I am following a bad practice!

If else, I hope I have not wrongly conveyed that I had problems. I meant I never had any problem with the Safari turbo until it left me @ 76000kms. The Marina is still with me and is fine as of now.
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Old 6th May 2009, 01:20   #49
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My Swift was taken to MASS for a distinct lack of Whoosh.
I have always used delvac MX or have used fully synthetic(Mobil 1, currently running OWS turbo racing) and the oil has always been changed under my direct observation.

The seals in the Swift Turbo are suspect. I'm not sure if its the oil by itself. but poor quality seals will be aggravated by inferior oils or oils that are too thin. Thats why lots of the defective swifts have turbochargers flooded with engine oil.

Greater engine load seems to help the oil break through the seals earlier.
Therefore,cars that are run harder seem to develop problems earlier.
Just theories. till maruti comes out with some honest info.

@jaggu- How is your car doing? Why is your missus against it? Its just a one off incident, and if the car is doing well, why worry?
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Old 6th May 2009, 11:10   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
I will update the story and why i am jumping around for such a silly matter like oil brand, which Maruti recommends. In a little while
The Yeti effect
Jaggu, please forgive me for using your thread. Let me know if I should take the turbo woe posts elsewhere.

The pull becoming linear as the kilometers build is what made me think that the turbo was deteriorating. Inspite of repeated complaints, MASS was never able to accept that it was a problem, till the turbo actually gave up completely.
It was attributed to, at various points,
1.Dirty air filter(was present)
2.oil in the intercooler(was present)
3.overfilling of oil(checked and cleared)
4.EGR system malfunction(not checked physically, but tech2 says its ok)
5.MAF sensor malfunction(checked and cleared)
6.Throttle position sensor malfunction(checked and cleared)
7.Boost leak(checked and cleared)
8.wastegate malfunction(checked and cleared)

Its possible that these problems were contributory to the loss of the turbo kick and the pull becoming more linear. but the main problem in my case, was always a gradually failing turbo.

Its easy to diagnose(now that I've gone through this circus).
Attach the tech 2, slot the car in 2nd or 3rd gear and watch the boost pressure.
At idle rpm(around 850 with the AC off) Boost should show atmospheric pressure i.e around 108kpa
when in 3rd gear, and accelerating(not maintaining steady speed) The boost should come to somewhere double that 210-220kpa at 2000rpm.
That level of boost comes slightly later in 2nd gear 2200 to 2400rpm.

Revving the engine with the car in neutral will not cause a rise in boost.
also, peak boost seems to build only while accelerating, once the car achieves the desired steady speed according to accelerator pedal position, boost will drop down to very low levels.

This is what I have been observing on Swift Ds fitted with a boost gauge.
I have not had the chance to confirm this with a Tech 2 from maruti. But results should be similar.

If anyone can do that(check with the tech 2) It will be useful. my long suffering MASS are probably sick and tired of seeing me and listening to my lectures.

There was a BHPians car I had TDed and felt via seat of pants dyno that the turbo was struggling(very mildly) he had got it looked at, and the readings checked out to his relief, but his was the only swift past 30k that I have driven and still had a decent turbo kick.

Maruti really need to pull up their socks about this.

Guys- if your swift's acceleration is linear, and without a kick, I suggest you get it looked at. The fuelling and ECU maps guarantee that the kick is always present,provided there is enough air supply(coming from the turbo), there is no reason for a run in to change the basic power delivery characteristics of an engine so much.

top speed achievable with a completely busted turbo is still pretty close to a normal car(around 160kmph) I know, i've tried The stock car should do 180kmph, given the road. So thats not a good way of checking turbo performance. acceleration figures are useful. but the best methods are tech 2 or an after market boost gauge. Tech2 preferable.
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Old 6th May 2009, 11:33   #51
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The posts of rippergeo in this thread is actually becoming a whole story itself. Also it is very educative and could be searched and referred. I would suggest the posts of rippergeo and related posts on his experiences of diagnosis and steps for remedy on the DDiS turbo be moved to a separate thread with apt title. This will be very helpful for future references on this subject.

The swit mentioned by him in the previous post is mine. Usually I am a sedate driver and not go beyond 80 kmph. So was not much aware of the turbo getting degraded. Once ripper TDd it, it was evident that the boost is not as before, and I am very thankful to him for giving the guidelines to get it checked and rectified.

I took it to MASS and they accepted that there is a delay as well as reduced boost in turbo kicking. They cleaned the intercooler and mentioned that oil was inside. I went for a TD with the technician with the tech2 connected and checked the turbo boost at various rpms and gears. The pressure boost figures was as mentioned by ripper. Only issue was in second gear the turbo acts only around 2400 rpm. Which is evident at downward slopes. If there is load, the turbo kicks earlier (around 2100 rpm). They have accepted to call the Maruti Engineer to check this.

Thats my part of the turbo story.
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Old 6th May 2009, 12:18   #52
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Ok guys i have copied the posts into a new thread so that this issue can be discussed in details.

Please post your experiences with the turbo issue and any resolutions of the same.

To start of i still dont think i have any serious issue with the Turbo yet, though i need to really carefully check if the RPM band has moved up or not. Which i plan to do over the weekend.

Meanwhile an interesting point i remember, used to get oily exhaust sediment during initial period of my car ownership (reported in the thread also), can this be linked to higher oil level before MUL sent out the circular to dealers? This phenomenon is missing now and i havent made any changes including the fuel brand.
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Old 6th May 2009, 13:29   #53
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@jaggu- thanks for creating a new thread.
Glad that your turbo is fine. However, the important thing to remember is that this turbo needs to be watched with a hawk eye. The turbo and the power delivery are an important part of the character of this car. Lose, that, and there is really no point in buying it over the more VFM qaudrajet or the Fiat palio SDE.

Even when the turbo is performing half as well as it should be, the car is plenty fast. So most people will not notice it.
Peak boost is only required under hard acceleration and most people dont drive like that all the time. Another reason why this problem escapes unnoticed.

I hope, that now, people who are concerned about the health of their DDiS turbos can go to their respective MASS with whatever info they have and try and diagnose if there is a problem.
Maruti are quite proactive and if there are enough valid complaints, they may actually come out with some answers.
Meanwhile, the wait for a replacement turbo continues.
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Old 6th May 2009, 13:57   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rippergeo View Post
Even when the turbo is performing half as well as it should be, the car is plenty fast. So most people will not notice it.
Peak boost is only required under hard acceleration and most people dont drive like that all the time. Another reason why this problem escapes unnoticed.
In my case am quite sure that there are no issues under hard acceleration, otherwise the car wouldnt have performed the way it did during the drives to Kannur and back. Car was mighty loaded and i ain't a saint when it comes to burning rubber.

Only thing i need to check is if the turbo kick has moved up by 100 rpm or so, IIRC it used to change behaviour in all gears at 1900-2000 mark. This i will confirm and update.

Meanwhile my mind is still tilting towards usage of different oils like Servo and Mobil 1 which might be the reason for accelerated wear in other cars in the first place. Add to it the excess oil that used to be filled earlier by Maruti. Very difficult to prove unless we do a proper study with a bigger sample size, till then its left to Maruti to resolve the issues for us.

Hoping that your turbo replacement gets a speedy response from Maruti.
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Old 6th May 2009, 19:37   #55
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Jaggu - Thanks for branching this discussion off your ownership thread.

Ripper - Thanks again for all the information that you have provided and i cant agree with you better with regards to your comments on your previous post.

I still remember the way it all started. My car was performing just the way it was meant to be, post 2000 RPM, with the turbo kicking in, there was absolutely no issues till about 5000 Kms on the ODO. However, i started noticing a distinct lack of surge post 2k RPM during one of my highway runs much later. Please note it is very difficult to note the change of this characteristic in the day to day city commute, as was the case with me. I contacted different MASS in chennai (MSM, CARS India, ABT) and none of them seem to have an idea of what im talking about. It made my case very weak as all of them were repeating that there was no problems with my car. Ripper echoed this thought in one of his earlier posts, i.e., the surge or kick of turbo at 2k RPM seem to be diminishing with more mileage on the ODO and i tend to agree with him there. This is exactly the problem i was facing and to validate the same i validated the figures with 3 different vehicles which had 20k to 30k on the odo. At idle and stationary, with A/c around 900 RPM, tech2 was showing 100 kpa (atmospheric pressure in kilo pascal) and as the revs build up, boost pressure started increasing beginning from 2000 RPM. It was 103-104 kpa at 2000 RPM building upto 120 Kpa at 3000 RPM. When the vehicle is in motion, depending on the speed and load, the boost pressure values kept changing and the last i checked in my vehicle it was around 200 kpa at 2000 RPM. im not able to recollect the gear the vehicle was in, and as per MASS, this is pretty much the same number tech2 will show for the other vehicles irrespective of its mileage on the ODO. It was hard for me to beleive this, as i can for sure say the surge is missing, which i used to feel in the vehicle before. I unfortunately couldnt find a new vehicle which had less mileage to support my theory.

I escalated the issue to Maruti (via email) and they promptly referred me back to the MASS in chennai to have this issue attended to. While i agree that customer service, responsiveness of MASS is great, the same cannot be said about the technical competency and expertise of people. 9 out of 10 people couldnt understand a word i was talking about. Finally, i found a person in CARS india (Kotivakkam branch) who was able to understand the problem and speak my language. However, we havent made much headway in this, as the boost pressure seems to be similar across the others cars that we tested in, and my conclusion for the moment is that turbo surge is inversely proportional to mileage on the ODO.

I remember Ripper quoting, he lived with this problem till the juncture when the turbo completely gave up and may be only then i will be able to make the MASS understand that there is a problem with the turbo. I have temporarily given up, trying to make them understand as i was getting nowhere, not to forget the time that i had to spend with them explaining all this.

Jaggu - I remember changing oil @1000 kms and thereafter only at 10k on the odo. However, the problem started showing up only after 5k Kms and hence im ruling out the possibility of different grade of oil used. Even in my 10k change, it was Mobil, 3.1 litres and hence i dont think oil is the suspect here. Maybe when i give my vehicle next for service, ill ask them to clean the turbo to see if it makes a difference.

Please keep your thoughts coming in. Thanks for all your inputs to this.
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Old 6th May 2009, 20:19   #56
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What was the oil and how much was the quantity which was put in at 1000 kms.
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Old 6th May 2009, 20:31   #57
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I knew you would ask me this question and unfortunately i dont have an answer to this. I tried searching my records to see if i can get a hold of the bill for 1000 Km service, but i couldnt. At that juncture, i never thought it would come in handy at a later point in time. I never thought this could be a serious problem and was under the assumption that this is caused due to a dirty air filter. I reported this issue to MASS during my 10k service, and replaced the air filter at my own cost only to find out that the issue hasnt been resolved. I posted my original query after this incident in the forum for advice and only after Ripper confirmed he is also having a similar issue, i started suspecting the turbo.

Quote:
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What was the oil and how much was the quantity which was put in at 1000 kms.
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Old 6th May 2009, 20:42   #58
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Folks- did any of you check with other Quadrajet/MJD owners regarding this? Do they experience the same issue? Also you could compare what grade of Oil is recommended by Tata & FIAT.

Have a friend who drives an MJD. Will check with him and update this thread tomorrow.
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Old 6th May 2009, 21:00   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bala80 View Post
I knew you would ask me this question and unfortunately i dont have an answer to this.
i also sensed since you seem to have omitted that part

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevertouchme View Post
Folks- did any of you check with other Quadrajet/MJD owners regarding this? Do they experience the same issue? Also you could compare what grade of Oil is recommended by Tata & FIAT.

Have a friend who drives an MJD. Will check with him and update this thread tomorrow.
Yes i actually was thinking in these terms. Is this issue limited to Maruti DDIS or is it universal for Multijet engines.

Fiat europe uses Synthetic CF4 oil but the brand seems to be SELENIA WR any info on Indian MJD would be useful.

My take is:
  • Cars run with excess engine oil can cause turbo failure
  • Cars run with wrong grade oil can also cause deterioration

Both these factors contribute in varying degree and severeness also varies.

Last edited by Jaggu : 6th May 2009 at 21:04.
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Old 6th May 2009, 23:16   #60
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Fingers Crossed, My swift is 9000 km up and the turbo kick is as vicious as it was before in 1st,2nd and 3rd gear but starts at a shade above 2100 rpm and below 2200 rpm. In between.
It can be felt in 4th as well as 5th gear and in these gears the turbo kick starts at 1900 rpm and goes all the way.
Today for the first time i revved the car till 4000 rpm and after 3200 rpm the climb was slow and at 4000 rpm it did not even feel like it would climb anything more than this. The engine was strained.
How do u guys manage 4500 rpms is a question i would like to ask ?
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