Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 20th October 2010, 15:07   #76
Senior - BHPian
 
shankar.balan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: BLR
Posts: 8,027
Thanked: 5,325 Times
Default

well said

the second scenario is what I was trying to describe on account of the tall ratio of reverse gear. Yes I am forced to adopt this practice when reversing.

Scenario 1 is very bad practice as is Scenario 3. And YES, one should typically use the same gears for ascent as well as descent on the same kind of gradient/ slope, while driving in the hills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by proton View Post
There are three situations that are being discussed:

Using Clutch Pedal as foot rest
Always wrong, leading to throw-out bearing failure and expensive dropping of tranny: solution, rest on dead pedal or floor.

Depressing Clutch Pedal partially
Necessary for smooth roll off and take up of clutch between gear AND controlling vehicle speed in gear engaged condition, wrongly used for avoiding a downshift, leading to premature clutch friction surface wear and dropping of tranny. This is generally the situation described as "riding".

Depressing Clutch Pedal fully
Necessary for disengaging and changing gears, wrongly used to achieve a neutral-like condition, for coasting, and for waiting at lights. Excessive practice can lead to premature throw-out bearing failure and wrong gears being engaged when the foot is lifted. Generally, a good rule of thumb is to descend a slope in the same gear as you would use to climb that slope. This would entail a slight application of accelerator, but afford some control when you lift your foot off the gas.

So there ARE situations when one DOES need to "ride" (partially depress) the clutch.
shankar.balan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2010, 15:52   #77
Senior - BHPian
 
anilisanil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,435
Thanked: 288 Times
Default

I am a bit confused after reading this. I used to think that clutch riding = accelerating without completely disengaging the clutch (foot completely off the clutch pedal).

I generally use clutch and brake in slow moving traffic. Is this clutch riding? Because in slow moving traffic I am able to control the speed of my car by engaging clutch to different levels with my foot completely off the gas pedal (I drive a diesel) does that qualify for clutch riding?

As someone said I too cannot avoid half clutching while reversing or starting from zero in the middle of steep uphill (typical parking lot scenario)


Also, does engine braking qualify as clutch riding?

Last edited by anilisanil : 20th October 2010 at 16:08.
anilisanil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2010, 16:00   #78
Senior - BHPian
 
clevermax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tvm/Amsterdam
Posts: 1,601
Thanked: 403 Times
Default

I always rev-match while down shifting to avoid the sudden jerk that you get the moment you de-clutch. Sometimes while up-shifting, I rev slightly up and de-clutch to continue with the smooth acceleration. I hate it when some guys release the clutch without pressing the accelerator a bit - it feels that the car has hit something.

If you have an engine with loads of torque at lower end, then half crutching on idle rpm won't do any considerable damage compared to half clutching while keeping the engine at high rpms. That just burns the clutch and you get to smell that.

My clutch is still going fine after running around 60K Kms.

Last edited by clevermax : 20th October 2010 at 16:02.
clevermax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2010, 16:32   #79
Team-BHP Support
 
noopster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 8,665
Thanked: 9,195 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
I am a bit confused after reading this. I used to think that clutch riding = accelerating without completely disengaging the clutch (foot completely off the clutch pedal).
Nope- this is an essential part of the process of driving a Manual anyway. "Riding the clutch" as we are discussing here is nicely summed up by proton's post above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
I generally use clutch and brake in slow moving traffic. Is this clutch riding? Because in slow moving traffic I am able to control the speed of my car by engaging clutch to different levels with my foot completely off the gas pedal (I drive a diesel) does that qualify for clutch riding?
Yes. And yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
As someone said I too cannot avoid half clutching while reversing or starting from zero in the middle of steep uphill (typical parking lot scenario)
The "half-clutch" concept is big with a lot of us probably because we grew up learning driving on old Fiats and Ambys. I remember my Dad solemnly telling me that the most important driving lesson was learning to employ "half-clutch" on inclines. Perhaps because the handbrake was so dashed hard to reach (or sometime absent completely!)

The easiest thing to remember is this: USE THE CLUTCH ONLY TO CHANGE GEARS. That's it. Period. Do NOT engage it to slow-drive, or while braking, or to mimic neutral, or as a resting place for your tired foot, or anything else.

I did a lot of unconscious clutch-riding in my Accent and eventually had to change the clutch at under 50K km if memory serves right. It takes a lot of patient re-learning to get rid of old habits and conditioning, but in my Swift I aboslutely refuse to use the clutch for anything other than changing gears. I can see a lot of people use the excuse of slow moving traffic to justify the habit of riding the clutch. So what? If you must, go back to neutral. But for heaven's sake don't let that foot linger on that pedal!
noopster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2010, 16:34   #80
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 168
Thanked: 72 Times
Default

Just the kind of questions I always had in mind. My maruti, which has done 75K, has seen 2 clutch replacements so far. Last being at 71K and first at 38 or something.

Surprisingly, I thought they will last longer after first change as at least in my opinion I tried doing a lot less of "clutch riding", guess I still haven't learned.

My fear is am I damaging the clutch of my new fiesta? This is how I drive now.

1. I make sure my foot is not resting on the clutch pedal, its on the pedal only when I need to change the gear
2. I see bad traffic to and fro work, I try my best to stay away from clutch but I still have to use it at times to avoid jerks picking up from stand still and occasionally when it is really crawling.
3. I noticed that my car can chug along if I put it on first gear and dont use accelerator. I keep it at that as much as possible while crawling. But it doesnt happen a lot as either traffic would come to a stand still again or all of a sudden would pick up speed
4. I try releasing clutch as early as possible, but it often results in a jerk so I invariably end up using clutch and accelerator to get a smooth start

Let me know how do you assess my driving?

Also, I read someone saying that it is possbile to change gears without engaging clutch. Is that really possible? If yes, would love to know more
New.Novice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2010, 16:47   #81
Team-BHP Support
 
noopster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 8,665
Thanked: 9,195 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by New.Novice View Post
Just the kind of questions I always had in mind. My maruti, which has done 75K, has seen 2 clutch replacements so far. Last being at 71K and first at 38 or something.
It's difficult to assess anyone's driing without seeing how they actually do it, but all the best- it helps to make the effort! As far as your Maruti experience goes, MASS is always urging its customers, especially Swift owners, to change the clutch because it is too hard. It's crazy- most of my friends have Swifts and all of them without exception are told this at any servicing after 30,000 km (some even earlier!)

There is another thread on that somewhere here- luckily I saw it and have been saying "No" religiously ever since they started asking me. I am planning to change my clutch at 70,000 (if then), not a mile before!
noopster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2010, 17:44   #82
Senior - BHPian
 
myavu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi - Kochi
Posts: 1,088
Thanked: 583 Times
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by proton View Post
There are three situations that are being discussed:

Depressing Clutch Pedal fully
Necessary for disengaging and changing gears, wrongly used to achieve a neutral-like condition, for coasting, and for waiting at lights. Excessive practice can lead to premature throw-out bearing failure and wrong gears being engaged when the foot is lifted.

So there ARE situations when one DOES need to "ride" (partially depress) the clutch.
Can you please throw some more light into the situation (bold one) above.

I have a situation like - I am waiting at a Red Light with ignition off and behind few cars from the light. Now the light turn green, I started the car and while moving forward just reaching the light, light turns red for some VVIP passing by (my real life experience daily at Red light just after Supreme Court towards Barakhamba Rd.). I am still in the first gear and will press the brake and clutch fully to wait knowing that the light will turn green, say in 20 to 30 seconds. Once light turns green, I will just release the clutch /brake and accelerate forward. So in this situation, while the clutch is fully pressed, there is no load on engine/gearbox and engine is calmly idling at 600RPM.

Cheers!

Vinu
myavu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2010, 22:47   #83
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 124
Thanked: 26 Times
Default

Wow! Plenty of fresh inquiries cropping up I see, and I just worked on the older ones.

First of all, you guys shouldn't worry too much about clutch damage: I feel that most clutch expenses are padding of the bill by the workshops, and you guys are mostly doing okay, driving wise, but cave in to the manipulation because of uncertainty. But then, all the more reason to become savvy and avoid being overcharged. If I haven't covered a doubt please feel free to repeat your query. As we become more comfortable with technology, you will start to hear those two magic words more and more often: due diligence. You hire a consultant when you buy some equipment or sign a contract, and you have some peace of mind, but there's nothing like going over the fine print yourself. Believe me you'll be thanking yourself many times for doing just that.

============
I am a bit confused after reading this. I used to think that clutch riding = accelerating without completely disengaging the clutch (foot completely off the clutch pedal).

Clutch "riding" is a colloquialism from the West: in past times when we were isolated from foreign word usage, Indian car drivers used to use the phrase "clutch slipping" to describe the practice, and sometimes, one was considered an "expert" if he could hold a vehicle on a slope with deft footwork on the clutch and accelerator! Bad form!
-------------
Also, does engine braking qualify as clutch riding?

Not really, as true engine braking entails gradual increase in loading of the clutch, which is good, as opposed to the persistent prevention of complete engagement of the same, just to avoid a downshift.

==============
My fear is am I damaging the clutch of my new fiesta? This is how I drive now.

The clutch is a robust component, one of the links in the drive train, and able to take massive amounts of abuse. It has built in features that protect it against shocks and loading, but is actually susceptible to damage with lighter loading, because of the heat generated by the incomplete engagement! So as long as you are not allowing prolonged semi disengagement of the friction surfaces, you are okay.
========
As far as your Maruti experience goes, MASS is always urging its customers, especially Swift owners, to change the clutch because it is too hard. It's crazy- most of my friends have Swifts and all of them without exception are told this at any servicing after 30,000 km (some even earlier!)

The term "hard" is a misleading one: clutch action can only be hard if their is obstruction to the clutch release action, whether it is a mechanical or a hydraulic arrangement, and not friction plate failure . (Strange that faults become faults only after the warranteed period! ).

=========
Can you please throw some more light into the situation (bold one) above.

I have a situation like - I am waiting at a Red Light with ignition off and behind few cars from the light. Now the light turn green, I started the car and while moving forward just reaching the light, light turns red for some VVIP passing by (my real life experience daily at Red light just after Supreme Court towards Barakhamba Rd.). I am still in the first gear and will press the brake and clutch fully to wait knowing that the light will turn green, say in 20 to 30 seconds. Once light turns green, I will just release the clutch /brake and accelerate forward. So in this situation, while the clutch is fully pressed, there is no load on engine/gearbox and engine is calmly idling at 600RPM.


There is no problem if the clutch disengagement period is a short one.

Last edited by proton : 20th October 2010 at 22:50. Reason: added phrase "friction plate failure"
proton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2010, 22:57   #84
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: new mumbai
Posts: 99
Thanked: 4 Times
Default

Going through the thread made me think the way i drive. So noticed today that there are 2 situations where i ride the clutch:

1) After stopping at Red light and when the light turns Green generally ride the clutch for few seconds to give a start (Release the clutch and press the accelerate as is told in driving school)
2) Also when on a incline after a stop need to ride the clutch for a while as need to rev the engine before letting breaks go off

I am this can be bad for clutch but have not been able to figure out the way.

Any suggestions to avoid these kind of clutch rides???
scrooze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2010, 23:19   #85
BHPian
 
aa_asif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: KL 07 > KA 03
Posts: 244
Thanked: 35 Times
Default

I've completed more than 1L on my '02 Esteem and never got the clutch replaced till date and I can run for another 50K with the same clutch.

It purely depends on your driving style. Never keep your feet on the pedal after releasing and do not apply unnecessary gas while releasing the clutch.

To answer the other part of the question, Yes! you can drive a car without touching the clutch pedal and engage all gears except for 1st and reverse. You have to be at the very right engine rpm to engage the right gear and its a stupid thing to practice and it might cost you heavy damage if not done carefully.
aa_asif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2010, 00:05   #86
Senior - BHPian
 
rajeev k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Emerging Metro
Posts: 3,306
Thanked: 1,730 Times
Default

The life of the clutch depends on the style of driving. Earlier days drivers used the practice of stopping the on inclines on half clutch with the throttle slightly opened.This was the method for the learners and the learned. This used to eat away the clutch lining.

Another clutch eater is the partial disengaging of clutch to avoid downshifting. The in thing is to have minimal use of the clutch. Off On regime in lower gear in bumper to bumper traffic is much safer than riding the clutch on higher gears.

Don't ride the clutch but use the clutch.

Last edited by rajeev k : 21st October 2010 at 00:14.
rajeev k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2010, 12:56   #87
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chennai
Posts: 284
Thanked: 57 Times
Default

My M800 didn't have a single clutch related problem till I sold it at around 1 lac kms. The simple rule as others said is " USE CLUTCH FOR GEAR CHANGE ONLY". You may ride half clutch on a few occasions to prevent stalling but never make it in to a habit. Never use clutch while taking a turn. If required down shift and take the turn.
raju2512 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2010, 14:31   #88
Team-BHP Support
 
noopster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 8,665
Thanked: 9,195 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by raju2512 View Post
The simple rule as others said is " USE CLUTCH FOR GEAR CHANGE ONLY".
I was one of those who said it . It appears Murphy was riding my shoulder and cackling evilly! Last night and this morning to work I had crazy bumper-to-bumper/stop and start traffic to contend with and decided to do a self-audit. To my horror, I failed! Realised that I still was using the clutch to mimic neutral rather than shift back to and from neutral every time I stopped. It was a rude shock and I have consciously started avoiding this practice now. My left knee will live to tell the tale
noopster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2010, 14:43   #89
Senior - BHPian
 
mooza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,055
Thanked: 243 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by noopster View Post
I still was using the clutch to mimic neutral rather than shift back to and from neutral every time I stopped. It was a rude shock and I have consciously started avoiding this practice now. My left knee will live to tell the tale
I think this practice will not damage the clutch, but you are right about your knees
mooza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2010, 18:43   #90
BHPian
 
samsan02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 404
Thanked: 17 Times
Default

The first thing that a driving school guy told me was how to ride in b-to-b traffic.There is something called half clutch i.e gear in 1st, clutch released half and right foot on brake. Now control crawling in stop-go-stop-go traffic by just releasing brake to go and pressing brake to stop.

But what i figured out is this is gonna wear out the clutch fastest. Thou its fun and easy to control but not good for your clutch. So Instead I just fully depress the clutch and release depending on how much the trafic in front clears and If i am able to traverse some distance I release it completely and depress gas pedal to move and when I have to stop depress the brake/clutch(disengage clutch), this is in 1st gear mostly and sometimes in 2nd gear. Experts let me know If iam doing it right.

The next thing the driving school guy told me me was how to go over pot holes or bad patches in 2nd gear without a little bumpy ride or While moving in slow traffic. Same way in 2nd gear depress half clutch and control your motion using brake and gas. But this may also dammage the clutch, since the test vehcile was an indica diesel it made more sense to control the torque using a half clutch but still it would damage the clutch. Instead i now drive over potholes either in 2nd gear with clutch completely released and only giving gas when required and if i have to go over a bad patch slowly, I quickly down shift to 1st and slowly move with a lesser speed to reduce the bumpy ride, - Am i doing it right here, again experts please throw some light.

I have read in some earlier posts here, when one is pressing the clutch and in first gear and waiting at a stop signal, they term it as clutch riding. Is it true, i thought when a clutch is compeltely depressed then that means the clutch is disengaged and it shouldn't cause a clutch wear. May be being in first gear would increase the rpms and would consume more fuel compared to being in neutral but it shouldn't be called as clutch riding. Experts please comment.

I drive a petrol Punto, and since punto's clutch has a long play and is kind of hard I tend to keep my left foot somewhat resting on it thou without any pressure, not a good habit but will it wear out the clutch faster?
I know its a bad habit but mostly in city drives i tend to keep it like that. If I keep in on the dead pedal i find it difficult to move it back as i have to lift my foot a bit to bring it to the level of the clutch.
samsan02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Registration of a new car without any broker(without paying bribe) in Noida hdi_pro Indian Car Loans & Insurance 56 23rd March 2017 20:40
Esteem headlamp, tail lamp swap possible without mods? Raccoon Modifications & Accessories 24 15th December 2009 04:59
Ownership tranfer possible without prepaying Car Loan?? gaurav_diavolo Indian Car Loans & Insurance 4 9th November 2009 18:33
Shift without clutch ?? hell_rider Technical Stuff 2 6th March 2006 10:56
shifting without clutch streetlife Technical Stuff 4 14th October 2005 21:36


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 02:35.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks