Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 27th October 2014, 19:23   #31
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,068
Thanked: 6,237 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbie98 View Post
The best suitable oil for the 1.3 in Swift is Mobil Delvax MX 15W40. This is a mineral oil and does its job very well.



For Synthetic oil, you can try - Mobil 5W40. This makes the engine run silky smooth, you can feel the difference in the engive revs.



Back in the year 2009, I had tried Mobil 5w40 on my 2008 Swift DDiS. The observations were a smooth engine, but we saw an drop in engine oil on long highway runs.



Infact on a hot summer day, after running 600kms there was an oil level drop observed. On draining & measuring the engine oil at MASS, we saw that it was short by 750ml. The case here was that the car had run 300 kms and was given a break and then ran another 300 kms. The next day was when i observed the drop in engine oil.



On discussing at MASS, i heard few others also had observed dropping engine oil levels when using Synthetic. All these cases were with continuous highway running. After that we switched back to Delvac 15w40.





Recently last year, in my friend's second generation swift DDiS, a minor oil level drop (~200-250ml) was observed after a good highway run of about 350kms. This too was synthetic oil (not sure of the brand). But this car is continuing to run on synthtic and is doing good, but this is mainly used in city and short highway drives.

If these oils comply with the manufacturing specifications you are good to go. So check your manual. If it doesn't comply with the manufacturer specification don't use these oils.

Changing from one type of oil to another, especially to a fully synthetic oil, might initially see some slightly higher oil usage, but nothing you have experienced. Rule of thumb is that once your engine starts using more then a liter of oil per 1000 kilometer, its time to look at overhauling some bits.

Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2014, 19:31   #32
Senior - BHPian
 
joybhowmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,313
Thanked: 1,905 Times
Default Re: Swift Diesel - Engine sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Changing from one type of oil to another, especially to a fully synthetic oil, might initially see some slightly higher oil usage, but nothing you have experienced. Rule of thumb is that once your engine starts using more then a liter of oil per 1000 kilometer, its time to look at overhauling some bits.

Jeroen
Jeroen - how much would this usage level be to be considered normal. And then the other question - why would the usage increase when switching to synthetic?
joybhowmik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2014, 20:47   #33
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,068
Thanked: 6,237 Times
Default Re: Swift Diesel - Engine sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
how much would this usage level be to be considered normal. And then the other question - why would the usage increase when switching to synthetic?
interesting question and a bit tricky to answer, because we would have to define what constitutes "Normal". One could argue that if we go by my rule of a maximum of 1l per 1000km anything less could be considered normal.

That is probably not entirely true. The 1l per 1000km is more or less also a practical consideration. Sort of a cost versus benefits. When your engine starts using more oil than that chances are it will go from bad to worse pretty quickly. Before you get to this level, oil is relatively cheap compared to an overhaul, so you can replenish a lot of liters before you have spend as much as an overhaul.

As far as I have seen I have yet to come across car manufacturers that specify normal oil usage. Some will specify when you should consider an overhaul and that is likely to be somewhere along my earlier stated rule of thumb.

Without too much science to it, I would say that around 0,5l per 10.000km for car engines, be it petrol or diesel, could be considered normal. Anything more, means something is wearing down, but until you hit the 1l per 1.000km you probably don't need to worry or even do much about it.

On the other question: I don't have the exact explanation, other than some general hints and some of my own experience. Synthetic oil has materially different properties from non synthetic and that means that the actual lubrication is somewhat different, until everything settles in again.

I have found that even changing from one brand to another, with identical specification, might lead to a higher oil usage. Some engines seem more susceptible to it than others. I have some experience with overhauling Alfa Romeo engines. I have seen several cases where owners sticked religiously to the type of oil we put in after the overhaul. And several who started adding different brands, but with the same specification. The latter quickly developed a higher oil usage rates then the former.
Jeroen is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2014, 22:07   #34
Senior - BHPian
 
joybhowmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,313
Thanked: 1,905 Times
Default Re: Swift Diesel - Engine sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post

On the other question: I don't have the exact explanation, other than some general hints and some of my own experience. Synthetic oil has materially different properties from non synthetic and that means that the actual lubrication is somewhat different, until everything settles in again.

I have found that even changing from one brand to another, with identical specification, might lead to a higher oil usage. Some engines seem more susceptible to it than others. I have some experience with overhauling Alfa Romeo engines. I have seen several cases where owners sticked religiously to the type of oil we put in after the overhaul. And several who started adding different brands, but with the same specification. The latter quickly developed a higher oil usage rates then the former.
On the first point: I take it that you are probably referring to the process where all mating surfaces get coated with the new oil. But once that happens, is it possible for the synthetic usage to continue to be at higher levels than the mineral equivalent- on an otherwise healthy engine?

On the second point:
Viscosity range being a given, one would have thought oils with the exact same API/ACEA specification would tend to behave quite similarly. You refer to an overhaul between the use of different brands. That might not really be a great way to compare one against the other in terms of usage.

Do you know of instances where the following other control variables were invariant (same healthy engine, same driver, same driving pattern, same season, same fuel) , and yet usage changed when switching brands (i.e. same viscosity grades , same API/ACEA specification)?
Nonetheless it's interesting, that this can happen even as you described it. Quite unexpected, if one may say so, and definitely defying conventional wisdom.
joybhowmik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2014, 22:32   #35
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,068
Thanked: 6,237 Times
Default Re: Swift Diesel - Engine sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
On the first point: I take it that you are probably referring to the process where all mating surfaces get coated with the new oil. But once that happens, is it possible for the synthetic usage to continue to be at higher levels than the mineral equivalent- on an otherwise healthy engine?
I would think, and my (limited) experience shows that it would/should return to the same levels as before. So it is a short initial effect that should disappear.

As a general rule, the full synthetic oils do better on more modern engines, with relatively lower tolerances etc. So you will find some (older) engines that simply do not so well on full synthetic oil. I have said it many times, but when in doubt consult the owners manual. If it doesn't mention a specification for a synthetic oil, you should not try it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
On the second point:
Viscosity range being a given, one would have thought oils with the exact same API/ACEA specification would tend to behave quite similarly. You refer to an overhaul between the use of different brands. That might not really be a great way to compare one against the other in terms of usage.
Yes, that would/is my expectation as well, so I'm always a bit surprised to see the difference. These were relatively older engines and after an overhaul the engines are completely up to new spec, if not actually a bit better. A proper overhaul on older model engines or current new ones, if done properly is as good as a brand new engine in your brand new car. Now, problem might be finding a machine shop that can actually do a good enough job, but in most of (Western) Europe that is not a problem at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
Do you know of instances where the following other control variables were invariant (same healthy engine, same driver, same driving pattern, same season, same fuel) , and yet usage changed when switching brands (i.e. same viscosity grades , same API/ACEA specification)?
Nonetheless it's interesting, that this can happen even as you described it. Quite unexpected, if one may say so.
No, I don't have a whole lot of data, other than my own experience, but it does tally with similar experience of a good friend of mine, who overhauls car engines professionally and owned one of the best equipped machine shops I know.

I'm not a chemist by any stretch of the imagination, but here's my very abstract thought; Modern lub oils are fantastically complex. Every brand has their own recipe. They are governed by a relatively simple sets of recommended specifications e.g. viscosity. Where does it say you can mix different brands without affecting some of the underlying properties? I doubt you would find any lub oil manufacturer that would guarantee the working of his own lub oil, with somebody elses added into the mix. They were never specified at that level. So I think we sort of assume that they are all "interoperable" and by and large they are. But that's probably more to luck then design.

Somewhere on this forum (can't remember which thread) I have written about a very large field trial I was involved in on Marine Diesels. There we essentially proved that there was no distinguishable difference between the A-Brand lub oils and the B-Brands lub oils. (E.g. expensive oil versus cheap oil). We did not mix the two, only compared them side by side for a wide range of different operating conditions. (And found that many other factors have a much bigger impact on wear and tear then the lub oil!)


Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2014, 15:05   #36
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 58
Thanked: 52 Times
Default Re: Swift Diesel - Engine sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
If these oils comply with the manufacturing specifications you are good to go. So check your manual. If it doesn't comply with the manufacturer specification don't use these oils.

Changing from one type of oil to another, especially to a fully synthetic oil, might initially see some slightly higher oil usage, but nothing you have experienced. Rule of thumb is that once your engine starts using more then a liter of oil per 1000 kilometer, its time to look at overhauling some bits.

Jeroen

The oils are as per the Maruti's specification.

In the year 2008 when i tried synthetic in my Swift (1st gen) the manual had suggested only 15w40. Hence after the drop in oil levels i went back to Mineral oil and stuck to it till we had the swift with us.


Later sometime in 2012, Maruti had issued circular to fill synthetic oils (5w40) for the latest cars using the 1.3 DDiS. So in a friend's Swift - July 2012 Model, it has been always Synthetic. But even here we observed the drop in engine oil after the long highway run at good speeds. Engine age at that time was around 18k kms.

So it kind of surprised me and made me think that probably synthetic oil is not suitable for Swift DDiS which are used in highways mainly (non-stop long runs). Its just my observation based on three things - 1) Synthetic oil (5w40) 2) Swift DDiS 3) Usage pattern of highway long runs. I have heard the same kind of cases from MASS and other mechanic folks.


The other vehicles like Qualis, Innova, Bolero or Scorpio do not show any kind of reduce in engine oil level, even after covering 10,000 km intervals. All these are observed running on mineral oils.

Hence my confidence on Mineral oils are more and i tend to replace my oil (mineral) at 8000 kms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Somewhere on this forum (can't remember which thread) I have written about a very large field trial I was involved in on Marine Diesels. There we essentially proved that there was no distinguishable difference between the A-Brand lub oils and the B-Brands lub oils. (E.g. expensive oil versus cheap oil). We did not mix the two, only compared them side by side for a wide range of different operating conditions. (And found that many other factors have a much bigger impact on wear and tear then the lub oil!)
This is interesting piece of information. Something which i have been always wondering about.

But in my observations I have observed in some brands of oil, the discoloration is earlier than another brand. Similarly in one brand of oil, it becomes thicker than the other sooner. Both tried on the same vehicle, in similar driving conditions and both oils matching the same grade.

So does oil discoloration / thickening have any direct relationship with the quality of oil deteriorating over the period of usage?

Thanks.
Herbie98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2014, 15:49   #37
Senior - BHPian
 
joybhowmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,313
Thanked: 1,905 Times
Default Re: Swift Diesel - Engine sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbie98 View Post
So does oil discoloration / thickening have any direct relationship with the quality of oil deteriorating over the period of usage?
I prefer an oil to discolor and become more viscous within 3-4k rather than later.

To me, that means it's doing a wonderful job of keeping the cylinders , and its various nooks and crannies clean.

On the other hand, I would view with suspicion - on oil which is relatively clean and freer flowing after some 3k of use.
joybhowmik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2014, 17:34   #38
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,068
Thanked: 6,237 Times
Default Re: Swift Diesel - Engine sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbie98 View Post
So does oil discoloration / thickening have any direct relationship with the quality of oil deteriorating over the period of usage?
.
The oil discoloration is no indication at all as to the state of the oil. On most engines, even at the first oil change after new delivery the oil will turn black in a matter of a couple of hundred kilometers.

How do you measure thickening? There are some very simple viscosity test around where you might get some indication, but I'm not sure how relevant they are for engine oil testing. We used them in (marine) diesel engine oil testing.

Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th November 2014, 18:30   #39
BHPian
 
adit mishra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bhubaneswar
Posts: 71
Thanked: 9 Times
Default Re: Swift Diesel - Engine sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
I dont know its a natural phenomenon that familiarity reduces the satisfaction. On the contrary i would want to believe that any service oriented stream will try to improve the customer satisfaction to keep the repeat business high.



Yes the engine sound will go down as you run more, it will stabilize only by 10-15k based on your driving style.

I would recommend using Mobil Delvac MX instead of expensive synthetic oil and sticking to a 5k kms oil change. This has given me good results.

Also do ask the workshop to do a air bleed of diesel filter/pump circuit when you give the car for service. Try to always keep the fuel level above 1/4th so that chances of air lock are reduced.
Hi Jaggu, Can you tell me which Diesel is best - IOCL or BPCL Diesel? The BPCL pump near my house is company owned and operated. So I used to go there. Should I switch over to IOCL Diesel? Is it better? I have gone through previous posts that suggest the use of IOCL Diesel.

Is system-D or OWS absolutely necessary for Ritz Diesel? I think it is not available anywhere here. I have always used BPCL COCO Diesel and the car is butter smooth and except tyre noise there is no other Diesel-car related sound(knocking,etc). The car has run 21000 kms till date.
adit mishra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th March 2016, 15:51   #40
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 197
Thanked: 53 Times
Default Re: Swift Diesel - Engine sound

Has anybody faced this issue with the New generation Swifts?

I have a 2014 Swift VDI run 35k kms with this knocking noise. Most pronounced while in 3rd gear and accelerating.
The car sees a fair mix of both highways & city driving.
What could be the solution to this?

It could just be me over thinking, but have a feeling that the 'kick' the turbo used to deliver has also mellowed down a bit. Is there any way to verify this?
And how to solve these. I am vary of taking this directly to the dealership without any background information, as I know for sure that they would end up recommending a lot of unrelated & un-necessarily expensive treatments.
Sinner666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sound characteristics of an engine - how is it unique to each engine? justwheels Technical Stuff 35 20th February 2012 23:10
Help Choose: City vs Fiesta Diesel vs Verna Diesel vs Swift Diesel aseem Hatchbacks 21 11th October 2009 17:44
Advice Needed: Ford IKON Diesel(2009) engine sound too loud agent009 Sedans 16 15th March 2009 14:51
Sound from Engine Bay of Swift VDI (DDIS) - what would be the cause of this sound? DieselFan Technical Stuff 4 25th January 2008 18:31


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 15:06.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks