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Old 19th September 2009, 09:45   #46
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Originally Posted by bj96 View Post
Well by that logic we are still a Neanderthal. What are we doing on t-bhp?
lets not forget there is a huge power in time and selection... I am sure TML must have "learnt" a lot in the near decade or more they saw between first 407 and a 3L dicor they made. Assuming they are rational enough not to select same mistakes again and again.
BJ
BJ, my comment was in the following sequence -
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
On a different note, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Safari 3.0L Dicor & yes, the basic engine was the TATA 407 one - bulletproof reliability & amazing hauling power.
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
PS:
After reading comments on 3.0 L Dicor and 407
3.0 L Dicor has origins in 407 Engine but it is NOT same in any way. Only engine block was shared between these two engines.
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
Amit, "basic" engine refers to origins. Obviously a non Common Rail & a Common Rail cannot technically be the "same" can they?
If you remember, the 3.0L DiCOR engine was derived from the 407 DI motor & has Delphi-TVS’s second-generation common rail system fitted on.
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Old 19th September 2009, 12:21   #47
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The 3.0l DICOR in the Safari was not a derivative of the 407 mill. It was derived from a different old (non-Tata) mill by AVL Austria. Took 10 years to hit the market. And, if I am not mistaken, the injection system is/was Delphi's first gen CR system. TVS?
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Old 19th September 2009, 12:53   #48
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
In which gear?
In 5th gear. Here is what I have posted. My poor punctuation and presentation skills are reason behind confusion.

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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Safari 3.0 was a good cruiser due to torquey nature of motor, in top gear, Safari 3.0 was geared to do around 50 kmph / 1000 rpm.
About the same engine issue, @amitk26, what you are stating is correct that the block is same, but we cannot runaway from the fact that this engine has roots laid back into LCV segment. There were certain parameters under which the engine was designed and nobody can take it beyond a certain limit. In case of scorpio, the block remains the same and this heavily affects the overall weight of motor. As far as my knowledge goes, the motor is scorpio is still very heavy + mounted high which has led to not very good handling. Same with Xylo too.

So I would like to say that basically the engine of Spacio/Safari 3.0 and 407 are same. And this shows in both the Safari as the engine is good for torque, the revv limit of just 3K rpm showing the root and simple basic architecture. The power band is really narrow.



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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
You must be referring to the 60's TMB truck engine, but why the exhumation in the context with DICOR? IMHO what Tata is doing for FIAT today is quite commendable in industry context.
Certainly not. For me, the commitment towards the customer will be seen when they have their own chain of dealer and service center networks. Fiat has short term advantage, but Tata is the one to have long term advantage. All this is IMHO.


EDIT :

Quote:

The 3.0l DICOR in the Safari was not a derivative of the 407 mill. It was derived from a different old (non-Tata) mill by AVL Austria. Took 10 years to hit the market. And, if I am not mistaken, the injection system is/was Delphi's first gen CR system. TVS?
To the best of my knowledge, the injection system was second generation from Delphi. And the motor is derived from 407. Its the 2.2 that is from AVL. The 2.2 block is same for both Safari 2.2 and Scorpio 2.2.
Correct me if I am wrong.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 19th September 2009 at 12:55.
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Old 19th September 2009, 15:10   #49
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On the 4th page now:
Can someone point out the answer to GREENHORN's primary question: What went wrong with the Dicor..?
I guess only someone technically sound can point out the technicalities pointing to the failure about the particular engine design or otherwise, if at all it is deemed as a failed engine!
@Greenhorn: I know your intent is not of a TML bashing thread, though I truly enjoy them. I like the free for all Tata bashing threads- behti ganga mein haat dho dalo!!

Are you planning on buying a Dicor engined product from the TML stable?

Last edited by jaysmokesleaves : 19th September 2009 at 15:13.
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Old 19th September 2009, 16:13   #50
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A Dicor in an indigo/indica?
probably, if they made it either
1) cheaper to own & maintain
or
2) powerful/torquey; on par with other small displacement crdi engines

I'm not going to ask for reliablity - Might be too much to ask, and is subjective, and I'm willing to make myself a willing volunteer in that regard

Till then, I'll stick with TDI thanks. Why, Dad bought an Indigo CS TDI for their office use last week!

Last edited by greenhorn : 19th September 2009 at 16:16.
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Old 19th September 2009, 17:25   #51
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Once its confirmed somebody will have to post the thread to Mr.TATA to get his guys think about it.
Atleast he didn't make a hell of difference between petrol and diesel models like other manufacturers and kept it VFM with maintenance cost included.
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Old 20th September 2009, 07:34   #52
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If everyone would notice, I started this thread in the technical section, since i was interested in the technical reasons. So far, I've managed to understand the following weak links

1) Delphi common rail equipment - esp the injectors. Not as hardy as their bosch counterparts?
2) Gearbox/Exhaust limitation in case of the indigo
3) spotty QC - Not quite a technical reason.

Have i missed out on anything? I'm just asking for info from people who have had experience working on their own dicors/gotten info from people who have, since i can't ask for the engineers at TML themselves, and even if we did, I know there are quite a few here ( thanks chaps for at least reading, and the other insights!) they cant respond here.
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Old 20th September 2009, 09:28   #53
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Just my thought. Dicor engines are as good as their IDI/TDI counterparts. For some reason, the confidence of the engineers and marketing team at Tata Motors seems to be tilted heavily in favour of the TDI engines, possibly because they have familiarised thesmselves very well with the engine that has been around for about 10 years now, and not want to put real effort in decoding the Dicor engine's problems, whenever they come across them. The issue can be partly due to the support tie-up with Lucas, for servicing Delphi common rail systems. Incompletely trained staff from Lucas are sent to resolve issues, leading to expensive trial-and-error replacements, and finally making the TASS crew and importantly, the owner wary of these.
Off-topic: Telco (previously) had replaced the popular 1510's with 1312TC's (truck and bus chassis), even when the demand for 1510 was still going strong. The features on the 1312TC were unheard of before, in the CV industry, like hydraulic clutch for effortless driving, turbo chargers for the quick and constant torque, engine to be fed with diesel alone, and not diesel+oil (please correct me if i'm wrong in any of these). They hesistated to take the same step with their passenger cars, which shows their internal confidence in the Dicor's, and also reminds me of the saying "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"..
Stretching the TDI engine to meet BS-III emission norms was a feat in itself, but they cannot take it further to meet BS-IV requirements. I hope they take time in learning the Dicor to it's roots, and make it standard across all models. They cannot give us economical cars in future, if they decide to go along with Fiat multijets instead of Dicors. Dicor might give them pains for sometime, but it'll settle down once they familiarize themselves with it.

Last edited by dkamath : 20th September 2009 at 09:32.
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Old 20th September 2009, 09:29   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
The 3.0l DICOR in the Safari was not a derivative of the 407 mill. It was derived from a different old (non-Tata) mill by AVL Austria. Took 10 years to hit the market. And, if I am not mistaken, the injection system is/was Delphi's first gen CR system. TVS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
To the best of my knowledge, the injection system was second generation from Delphi. And the motor is derived from 407.
Correct me if I am wrong.
That's what I know as well - 407 & 2nd generation TVS Delphi
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
So far, I've managed to understand the following weak links

1) Delphi common rail equipment - esp the injectors. Not as hardy as their bosch counterparts?
I'm not sure I'd subscribe to that theory as my 3.0 L has Delphi common rail equipment which has given zero trouble so far (Touch wood). In fact, I haven't heard of any 3.0L with injector problems so far (and there are a handful on this forum itself).
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Old 20th September 2009, 10:57   #55
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Originally Posted by suman View Post
I haven't heard of any 3.0L with injector problems so far...
Could difference, if any, of rail pressure and compression ratio between 3.0 and 2.2 vtts has anything to do with this?

Btw, what is the average rail pressure and CR of some other matching engines (for passenger cars and SUVs) that we have? CRDi, CDI, D-4D etc vs DiCOR

Can someone w/ knowledge bring out a comparison chart something like this:

Engine | Tech | CC | CR | Rail pressure | Max RPM | Max Torque | Max Power| Power/ton |Torque/ton

e.g.

Toyota|4 cyl, inline, dohc,D-4D|2500|xxx| ...|...|...|102bhp@3600rpm|...|...

I think that will be a useful data to analyze.

-BJ
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Old 27th October 2009, 17:40   #56
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Just wanted to know - now with the indigos launched with fiat engines only, I wonder what happened to tata's own line of engines. Have they given up? or are the engine folks all running after the nano's powerplant?

I recall Mr tata saying with pride in the recent ACI interview that , when they started developing the indica in house, everyone was saying that they would have to licence at least some things from others, or that they would never get anywhere. The original indica proved all of that wrong. I'm proud to say that I have an all-Indian car, but now, while its great that customers have the option of buying the fiat engined indicas, what happened to the other options? Essentially, by using fiat powerplants alone, tata has virtually admitted it cannot offer a competent alternative of its own.

will the indica vista TDI survive BS IV? will there ever be a 1.4 dicor launched which is not limited by the clutch/gearbox/exhaust like it supposedly was in the indigo/indica? Are there any new tata passenger car poweplants (other than the crdi unit for the nano) in the pipeline?

Last edited by greenhorn : 27th October 2009 at 17:41.
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Old 27th October 2009, 17:50   #57
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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
I don't think it is a problem with the DICOR engine. As others have pointed out Common Rail Technology is common place now and not rocket science. Tata has issues with it's quality control and vendor management. The DICOR and non DICOR versions have equal QC issues. However the no-DICOR, i.e the older IDI Tata Engines are cheap to maintain and quite old tech without ECU etc so not much goes wrong with it.

The DICOR engine is a mucn more complex unit with various sensors working in harmony, hence poor QC has a bigger impact on the DICOR engine than on the IDI engine.
Completely agree to the fact of what 4x4addict has said about QC and vendor management.

My roommate is an engineer with ITW which does the engineering CAD/CAM bit for most of these biggies in India and we've had endless discussions on how TATA just lets go of these important decisions on shut lines, plastic quality and fit of components. And these decision makers are none other than the top of the management.

The vendors too are asked to cut costs therefore what suffers is quality and reliability and the gripes go up...
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Old 27th October 2009, 19:28   #58
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@greenhorn:

I think Tata's have realized that selling taxis is one thing and building an image in the passenger car market is another ball game. I mean how many professionals want to spend time in Tata's Workshops sipping tea out of disposable cups?

Since Manza is launched as a premium product relative to the rest of the Tata stable, they figured safer to go with Fiat technology than the in house DICOR.
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Old 28th October 2009, 15:23   #59
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The 407 engine is actually a benz derivative .please note that the tempo traveller cabin and the 407 cabin are similar in design .
The 407 block is built for more torque and less BHP .
Safari needs Bhp as well as torque ,but the 407 truck needs torque to haul around loads .

The 2.2 block can provide bhp in excess of 140-160 if configured properly and that is why the transistion is there .

Dont expect the 407 block to be written off as yet .. it will do duty when the bs4 regulations come into place on a 407 truck with the common rail stuff .

The injectors are manufactured to precise tolerances and tested atleast a billion times effectively .. so it dosent really matter wether it is bosch or delphi .

coming back to the OP .. the dicor engine of the indigo xl is basically from tud5 - peugeot . The motor was designed for 50 horses roughly .. how do you think the same block can withstand 70 horses ? without any modifications ? and If the mods in the block are not so effective in realising the power produced then durability will definitely suffer .
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Old 28th October 2009, 17:14   #60
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Quote:
the dicor engine of the indigo xl is basically from tud5 - peugeot
no its not.I'm positive its the 475 block with a dohc head and delphi common rail, and that its a popular misconception that they are derived from the TUD5.
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